TSOA Where Is the UOA for M1 15W50 in your car and one of Castrol 5W50 For Comparison

[JohnBrowning]

So far you have been very vocal about how M1 blows engines! First were is the proof? Second if you have proof and the engines were not being raced lets see the free engine that Mobil purchased! Third please explain to me how the chemistry or hydronamics of M1 cause engines to fail!! We have alot of chemists,tribologists,Tech.'s, engineers etc on this site and I am sure that a lot of us would love to hear how this happens!! I would equaly impressed to hear what makes Castrol's GIII Syntec better then M1. For the record I am not brand loyal I have Redline in one car and AMsoil in another. I also have used M1 off and on since 1988 on the Autobahn in Germany and in the USA. I even used Syntec 5W50 for a few years until they lied to all of their consumers. TSOA I do not have a problem with you choice of oil just the line of bull you are shoveling. Prove that M1 cause's engine failures! John, I edited out some cussing, please keep it clean. Thanks, Joe [ November 24, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: joee12 ]

 

[sprintman]

JB he's just misguided IMO. Happens to all of us at some point in our lives. I used to believe the old 'Pennzoil causes sludge' crap, now have it in my Outback. We all live and learn.

 

[Propflux01]

Yeah, he must use one of them 'orange' filters..

 

[TSoA]

JB, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are legitamately interested in my position and simply want some physical evidence of my claims. No problem, I completely understand. In 2 parts, my case is that M1 15w-50 is not what is actually used in real race cars. I think I have gone a way toward doing that already, it is a charade to boost M1 sales while giving custom-blended Mobil "1" componets to the sponsored teams. The reason there is so little feedback on this is the non-disclosure agreement that comes along with a sponsorship contract. End of story. Secondly, when you get guys hod-rodding on M1 "racing", believing it is up to the mega-horsepower applications alluded to in NASCAR, it falls flat on it's [****] . That is my "theory" and how I "prove" it is the same way it would be proven in court, through the testimony of a recognized expert. Is BitOG going to draw out all the facts that a court case would, no. It costs money to tear-down an engine, but if you want to pay my mechanic, he has a few of the exact engines in question. Probally he would give a technical report to you as well, if you paid for it. I took a bunch of the guy's time to get the story, and WE are going to have to settle for that. JB, you KNOW that I was not out trying to give a constant lecture on this and prepare some bush-league "court case" for the benefit of everyone. (who will never be convinced and will peck at me constanty anyway) If that is your standard, sorry, no UOAs...I don't need them, I know who I am talking to. Again, this grew out a request of oil advice for a 944T, I gave him very good advice. If you are so interested, send me a Blackstone Kit and I will sample the probally fresh M1 in a blown Porsche engine for you. Nothing special will be apparent in the UOA, I don't think that is the question. I actually hoped someone here would know why, for instance, M1 15w-50 does so poorly in a 4-ball test. Maybe it is akin the the tires that break away without warning verses ones who loose traction progressively. Both have the same traction rating, like Mobil and Castrol both meet SAE 50, but the oil film does not blow out as easily in one as the other. That would be an area of investigation, imo. My guy specificly said: "under the same extreme conditions, the Castrol cars do not blow and the Mobil ones do". Pretty strait-forward. You want ME to do a finite analysis on the engines and oil, outta my league. Believe me, you probally don't have to ask too many (independant) Porsche mechanics about this until you hear the same story again. I am actually DONE on this subject, excepting more PMs of support. [ November 24, 2003, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[Last_Z]

TSoA, The Tide laundry detergent logo rides on Ricky Rudd's car and Bill Elliot used to sport the McDonald's arches, but yet, they have nothing to do with engines or engine performance. It's all about marketing. What is my point?? My point is that it is foolish and ignorant when people believe everything they read or see. Just because it says on the M1 15W-50 bottle that the Penske team uses it, doesn't mean they actually run that "off the shelf" oil. Castrol claims that its Synthetic oil outperforms all leading "conventional" oils, when we know Castrol Syntec IS a highly refined conventional....and a bad one, I might add and that it gets it butt kicked by Chevron supreme. As for the mega horsepower engine builders blowing up engines with M1.....they spend countless hours testing and perfecting cylinder heads and picking the right cam, yet they don't investigate what oil their engines should use. I think your mechanic is making a very wild and generalized statement against Mobil. There are a lot of variables with his "testing" and I'm not ready to believe him. JMO. Rick

 

[Last_Z]

BTW, don't get POd dude and leave the thread...you "might" be right after all....I doubt it, but who knows. Let's just keep it professional guys.

 

[Shannow]

quote:

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Originally posted by TSoA: That is my "theory" and how I "prove" it is the same way it would be proven in court, through the testimony of a recognized expert. Is BitOG going to draw out all the facts that a court case would, no. It costs money to tear-down an engine, but if you want to pay my mechanic, he has a few of the exact engines in question. Probally he would give a technical report to you as well, if you paid for it. I took a bunch of the guy's time to get the story, and WE are going to have to settle for that. JB, you KNOW that I was not out trying to give a constant lecture on this and prepare some bush-league "court case" for the benefit of everyone. (who will never be convinced and will peck at me constanty anyway) If that is your standard, sorry, no UOAs...I don't need them, I know who I am talking to. Again, this grew out a request of oil advice for a 944T, I gave him very good advice. If you are so interested, send me a Blackstone Kit and I will sample the probally fresh M1 in a blown Porsche engine for you. Nothing special will be apparent in the UOA, I don't think that is the question. I actually hoped someone here would know why, for instance, M1 15w-50 does so poorly in a 4-ball test. Maybe it is akin the the tires that break away without warning verses ones who loose traction progressively. Both have the same traction rating, like Mobil and Castrol both meet SAE 50, but the oil film does not blow out as easily in one as the other. That would be an area of investigation, imo. My guy specificly said: "under the same extreme conditions, the Castrol cars do not blow and the Mobil ones do". Pretty strait-forward. You want ME to do a finite analysis on the engines and oil, outta my league.

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TSoA, Given how "happy" the board is lately, please take this with a grain of salt, and turf it if you want. If I were an engine builder (and I'm not, haven't done so for years, and only then was for myself, family and friends, never commercially), and some of the engines that I built failed, I'd be tearing them down immediately to find either where I'd made the mistake, or to prove to customers that brand X Oil destroy engines.. I wouldn't have a pile of engines sitting by to point customers at. Anyway, that's my opinion FWIW. [ November 24, 2003, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: Shannow ]

 

[buster]

TSoA, Mobil does make special race oils as confirmed by Terry Dyson and the fact that Mobil is going to be releasing the 0w-30 R racing oil. George Morrison has seen it and knows that it is being used in racing circles. FWIW, mechanics tend to be old school with oil. They tend to be the ones still spreading the myth that Mobil 1 will cause leaks in engines. Let me ask you this: If Mobil 1 caused engines to blow up, why is Mobil 1 factory fill in Corvette, Viper, Mercedez Benz (the new 623hp one) Aston Martin and Porche? Marketing power helps no doubt but these car manufactures would not be using an oil that is not good. That is a fact. The finest cars in the world use Mobil 1 and I don't see any recalls from engines malfunctioning. I've heard so many ridiculous statements from mechanics is amazing. This is one of them IMO. I do believe that 74% of the NASCAR circle uses Mobil 1 bc most likely it's not the off the shelf stuff. I also know that Redline and Amsoil make as good or better oils, but in the racing world, Mobil formulates differently from what I've read. So before you make these wild claims, we need more evidence then "my mechanic said". The finest cars in the world use Mobil 1 so it can't be that bad.

 

[joee12]

Guys, I have closed a few threads and edited quite a bit of cussing and personal slamming lately. It seems to be focused around this whole Mobil 1 debate lately. If you guys can't keep it clean, you will be banned from the site. This purpose of this board is to have conversations about oil, filters, etc. I put up with enough BS in my life and don't need to see it here. I think that I speak for alot of other members that just like to talk oil and not worry about cussing and people personally slamming them. Like I said, if you want to act foolish, go somewhere else, it will not be tolerated here. -Joe [ November 24, 2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: joee12 ]

 

[jsharp]

Common sense would tell us racing engines, especially ones built right out to the ragged performance edge, might tend to be picky about the oil used. It's quite possible that in the application TSoA spoke of that Castrol 5W-50 would work better than M1 even though they are sold for similar applications. It's hardly a testimonial to one and a condemnation of the other though. It only means in that specific application one oil happened to be superior. This has no bearing on what we run in our street cars, and in fact, means little when you try to apply it to any other specific application. Next time you're at the dragstrip look around and see what's more likely to get dumped into the fuel cars. Cheap Valvoline SAE 50 dino or some $5-$10 a quart multiweight synthetic...

 

[Dr. T]

In defense of TSoA, if you race with the current M-1 grades 0-30, 5-30 and possibly 10-30, I would not at all be surprised that a European engine (Porsche, BMW, VW, Audi, M-B) ends up in that scrap engine pile mentioned. Judging by the dust on the bottles on the shelves, I will venture to assume that the 30 weight M-1 are the best sellers and will also assume this is more likely the weight used in the engine failures mentioned. As I can see on this board, most people are afraid of using 40 and 50 weights due to N.A.-brainwashing of ONLY using 5-30's. The M-1 A1-rated 30 weight will NOT suffice in the above mentioned engines and will result in premature failure especially when raced or driven high speeds. Moribundman demonstrated this to us in writing from his owner's manual. So why is everyone surprised? As far as the 15-50, I think you'd be safe. It is an A3 oil and should be as good as any other A3-rated oil. And I think it's erroneous to say that this grade of M-1 was responsible for engine failures. My money rests on the above (non-recommended) grades. However, M-1 is a "race oil" and "nothing is better than M-1"...these are also false statements...

 

[TSoA]

Thanks for taking the time to calmly read and digest my post. I was surprised myself when John conveyed this to me. Yes, in this application, Castrol has the nod. Maybe due to a little better film strength, maybe due to some unknown aspect of the 15w-50, but my expert DEFINATELY recommends the Syntec. If he was ~anyone~ else and/or he did not have a pile of blown engines there as a visual guide, I would doubt it all too! Since it seems I am unable to convey what level mechanic we are talking about, I'll just leave my advice for people who are willing to take my word on the subject.

 

[Cary]

quote:

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Originally posted by TSoA: I actually hoped someone here would know why, for instance, M1 15w-50 does so poorly in a 4-ball test.

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I could give a good reason, the 4 ball test is to test greases, not oils. It is really a shame that Amsoil promulgated using this test to sell its oil. They make a good product, but market it like it is a ginsu knive. My two cents. I ran Mobil 1 15w-50 in my BMW M10 motored track/street car and never had a problem. I personally have known many people that ran the same oil at the track regularly and had no problems. Funny thing is that when castrol syntec 5w-50 came out there were people posting to the BMW digest how within a couple thousand miles of changing to it, many guys were blowing motors. I would be willing to bet that while some people blew motors on the Syntec, it was no more than on any other oil, just the everyone pointed to it as the cause. Cary

 

[Propflux01]

quote:

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Originally posted by TSoA: Since it seems I am unable to convey what level mechanic we are talking about, I'll just leave my advice for people who are willing to take my word on the subject.

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TSoA, I do not doubt your integrity or honesty in what you say, however you might be aware that anyone can claim 'brand x' caused all these motors to blow, etc, etc. without good solid hard undeniable proof that it was this or that which caused the failure, your post will be open to subjection. People come to this board primarily to look for knowledge with proof, and to get away from the 'my friends buddy's cousins, best freinds knows a mechanic who worked for a freind of richard petty....you get my drift...unless people see the actual proof that the oil was a failure, I am afraid your post wil be considered heresay to most who read it. in most courts, witness-only convictions are rare, and usually only with other hard evidence.

 

[TooSlick]

If the Castrol 5w-50 was entirely Group III based, the shear stability would be horrible. I suspect it's a Group III/PAO/Ester blend ...I haven't seen any very wide range synthetics that don't contain at least some PAO. The PAO is required to get the 0w rating at low temps and the VI needed to span the 5w-50 or 10w-60 range .... The Mobil 1, 15w-50 is probably the best product in their Supersyn line. Their 10w-40/20w-50 motorcycle oils are also excellent, but overpriced ....

 

[yannis]

I work as a quality control assistant in a major company(not oil related) and sometimes i see things i don't really like. I assume PAO's are difficult to manifacture, they begin as gas and are built atom by atom forming larger molecules,right? I am wondering what happens when something like temperature,pressure or machinery goes wrong how perfect and how close to the limits the final product will be. I assume again since group III are cheaper to manifacture that hydrocracking is not so complicated .Will this result to a more consistant quality and final product? Maybe an imperfect group III oil will be better than an imperfect Group IV oil when pushed over the limits?

 

[palmerwmd]

Yannis: Actually I am thinking the opposite. An isomerization nearly always has more varied products, than a synthesis, especially compared to addition reactions, (as used in PAO synthesis) which are also easier to QC. Fred... [ November 24, 2003, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: palmerwmd ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

The burden of proof is on the one that profess's it to be so!! How does PAO base stock with standard industry additives cause conecting rods to snap? Bearings to spin? oil pump to sieze? How does Exxon Mobil PAO base stocks wich are sold to a number of companys includeding but not limited to Amsoil cause cavatation issues, starvation etc??????? The laws of fluid dynamic do not change just becasue the base stock is in a Mobil1 bottle. Seeing how Castrol is primarly a blender and many think that their Syntec might contain some PAO and Esters they might actuly still be purchaseing some product from Exxon/Mobil. Seeing how Dan Gurney and Smokey Yunic won races with cars that ran oils that we would not put in a Corolla I find it hard to belive that even OTC M1 could kill an engine. Improper viscosity combined with exceeding engine design parameters will kill an engine everytime! It is much easier to blame the oil then to tell a Porsche Zelot that his car is a lemon or that he missed a shift. I think that most of us here are aware that most any team that has a sponsor of any size and is competitive is not runing an OTC oil. Even when race varitys are discussed most teams have tribologists that custom blend. To any that I offened with the swear word that is slang for fecal matter I apoligize! How can you have an open mind if you condem one of the leaders in the industry with no independent scince. You owe it to yourself to do a UOA with a varity of oils to see what is the best in your car. To do otherwise makes one a lehming(sp) mindlessly following the herd of mediocracy off the cliff!

 

[buster]

quote:

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I could give a good reason, the 4 ball test is to test greases, not oils. It is really a shame that Amsoil promulgated using this test to sell its oil. They make a good product, but market it like it is a ginsu knive. My two cents. I ran Mobil 1 15w-50 in my BMW M10 motored track/street car and never had a problem. I personally have known many people that ran the same oil at the track regularly and had no problems. Funny thing is that when castrol syntec 5w-50 came out there were people posting to the BMW digest how within a couple thousand miles of changing to it, many guys were blowing motors. I would be willing to bet that while some people blew motors on the Syntec, it was no more than on any other oil, just the everyone pointed to it as the cause.

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Well said, especially the ginsu knife part. Dr T. the reason Mobil 1 oils don't meet the A3 spec is bc cars in NA don't have to. They do offer however an A3 0w-40 which is labeled as there european formula. As far as M1 being a racing oil, it's not and doesn't claim to be. They are bringing out there racing oil next spring. Mobil 1 is no more a racing oil then Amsoil or GC is. These are STREET oils. Want a race oil? www.redline.com.

 

[HOndaGuy]

put it this way, would you trust a castrol(group 3 oil) that claims to be a synthetic, and i don't mean the german; or would you rather go with a proven true syn oil that protects and lubricates the best at its weight? I think we all know the answer here, mobil 1 15w50. Anyone who thinks castrol 5w50 is better might want to get their heads checked since they pay the premium for conv oil.