true source of oil comsumption pics

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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Some engines are harder on oil than others. This has also been discussed on here before.

Bill's logic is no more a universal solution than mine; there is a time and place for both schools of thought here.
Exactly. I note that while you rightly recognize and state this, some other posters here who have been served well with whatever oils, have not. That puts the worth of your posts in this thread above their posts. It's the same old story that's been played out on BITOG for years by those same posters.

I'm out of over $500 caused by deposits that clogged up the entire, extensive PCV system on my GTI (parts cost several hundred and labor the other hundreds). It could have been avoided by using better synthetics than the synthetics I used (all were VW 502.00 spec oils). Shorter than recommended 5K mile OCIs also could have avoided it but I dislike changing oil.

The posters I speak of look at the pictures above and instead of recognizing that there are a lot of piston deposits, they make sarcastic comments, directly or indirectly defending what's worked for them.

That's a lot of piston deposits. It looks like what caused part of the skirts to remain clean is rubbing against the cylinder walls.
 
I am confused ,when rereading the post,is this your engine? You seem adamant that Amsoil is the best but you were using "dino" oil in this engine? and when the car got totaled seem second person in the description ?
 
I've done several engine rebuilds on Porsche engines and the only pistons showing anything close to the Ford pic had worn valve stem seals, sucking oil down and displaying the same results. Worn bores too. Looks like an engine issue rather than quality of engine oil. I've seen dino oil engines in much better shape with more mileage. Could this just be a Ford?
 
Hmmm... looks fishy. Who know's the situation surrounding the engine's lifespan. FI? Spray? Mods? The list is endless.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
I'm out of over $500 caused by deposits that clogged up the entire, extensive PCV system on my GTI (parts cost several hundred and labor the other hundreds). It could have been avoided by using better synthetics than the synthetics I used (all were VW 502.00 spec oils). Shorter than recommended 5K mile OCIs also could have avoided it but I dislike changing oil.


This has me scratching my head. I just don't see how a an engine with synthetic 5k mile oil changes could end up with "sludge". Even a Group II conventional can take a beating for 5k miles and shouldn't sludge up. That scenario sounds more like something one would expect from a Group I based oil. Is there any possibility someone is selling "imitation" VW 502.00 oil…????

The other idea (FZ1 question) is about what gasoline is being used. I'm beginning to suspect that some winter blends of gasoline may dump more "garbage" combustion products into the crankcase than others causing gunk to build up.
 
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
Originally Posted By: JAG
I'm out of over $500 caused by deposits that clogged up the entire, extensive PCV system on my GTI (parts cost several hundred and labor the other hundreds). It could have been avoided by using better synthetics than the synthetics I used (all were VW 502.00 spec oils). Shorter than recommended 5K mile OCIs also could have avoided it but I dislike changing oil.


This has me scratching my head. I just don't see how a an engine with synthetic 5k mile oil changes could end up with "sludge". Even a Group II conventional can take a beating for 5k miles and shouldn't sludge up. That scenario sounds more like something one would expect from a Group I based oil. Is there any possibility someone is selling "imitation" VW 502.00 oil…????

The other idea (FZ1 question) is about what gasoline is being used. I'm beginning to suspect that some winter blends of gasoline may dump more "garbage" combustion products into the crankcase than others causing gunk to build up.


Sounds like VW has a big problem that NO oil is going to fix.

You don't know if more expensive oil would have fixed the poor design of a VW motor.

And if you own a car, you have to change its oil.
 
Well you know I was ASE Master Tech by 1990 so go figure. I have torn some engine downs you normaly do a couple hundred engines a year in a decent sized shop in a decent sized city! Some times they are complete replacements ie new short or long block other times you rebuild or just repair. THen you have all the cam swaps,valve train repairs, intake manifold gaskets and head gaskets and timeing belts and water pumps that do not even count towards the total number of engines rebuilt or replaced. You have to tear the thing apart sometimes to find out what failed and why. So my point is any mechcanic that is in a large city has seen more engines then any non-mechanic would ever see in a lifetime. It is just a fact of life. I am sure Dr. AEHass has seen more hearts in one yeas time then I would see in 10 lifetimes since I am not a cardiologist!

I also have never said that an engine would not make it 300,000 on conventional oil or further!It is preety common to see Toyota Hilux Pickups,Carolla,Camry's and Cressida's with 300,000-500,000 miles on them on the street still going strong on nothing but dino oil! I also have never said that that dino cause's oil consumption either. What idiot would make a statement like that! I think that Bill_in Utah is getting cantankerious in his old age and is putting words in peoples mouths unless I missed somethign wich I very well might have done!I know I sure as heck never said either one of the things that Bill try's so hard to put int hemouths of synthetic oil user's!It is though a scientific fact that is not up for debate that each secessive group number increase is clenaer and leaves fewer deposits behind when repeated subjected to the envrionmental conditions inside a modern internal combustion engine. It is also a fact that deposits cause mechanical [arts and seals to degrade over time just as much as wear and tear ever has. Like wise it is a fact that that the only reason that SM oils are so good is because of the mandated reduction in deposits that are allowed when testing to meet SM and that mandate has forced them to use less volitile dewaxed hydrocraked base stocks that are significantly better then the G-I stuff used for years!These are facts not opinions! In fact you could easily take a plate of steel that is clean and polished heat it evenly up to temp say 400° and drip various oils on it's surface for a few hours and see what the results are. You would be amazed at how quickly you would begine to see build up. The only base stocks that would remain almost deposit free are the G-V base stocks it is built right into their chemical structure just like a Cheat has their speed built right into it's genetic make up.

THe usualy culprit in consumption is piston and ring design but it can be exasperated by some oils and or deposit build up like we have seen on NorthStar engines and Saturn engines. In Ford's of yester-year the valve guides and seals where normaly the source of oil consumption but with these modulars I have to plead the fith because I just do not know enough about them.

A short piston skirt with thin low tension rings placed too close tot he top of the piton is an easy way to end up with consumption. THe reason they do this though is that it reduces emissions. Now if you hold your tolerances and clearances to insanely tight levels and really do a good job ont he bores finish you can get away with this for the first 100,000-140,000 miles with out too much issue. Now if you do not do this then you end up with vechiles that drink oil like a drunk locked in a brew house!!!This is why GM designed a new piston for the Corvettes and they tried what looked like epoxy encapulateing the piston. I held one at GM and no one could explain to me why they did that what it was meant to prevent but it was the strangest looking thing I had ever seen.

Chrysler did the high piston rings and almost no skirt on the pistons in the 4.7,3.7 and no problem with those engines useing any oil. The difference though is that that 3.7 V6 and 4.7V8 have race engine like tolerances and levels of concentricity. The materials used are far supurior to what they need to be for the puny power output of these engines.The rin lands and groves are anodized.

So it is all about design,materials,execution in manufactureing that determine if something is an oil burner in general. Now obviously neglect and abuse are not being accounted for but none of us do that so why discus it?

For 10,000,000,000 time synthetics are about cleanliness Bill just like detergents clean better then soaps.Scientific fact is scientific fact! Just look up the properties for any given base stock. If it leaves a mess in a test tube held over a bunson burner it is going to leave a mess in your engine when compared to a product that does not leave as much of a mess inthe beaker held over the same burner to the same temp. What is hard to believe about that? It is not like anyone is trying to convince the sky is falling or that your car is going to self destruct if you use anything other then what the OEM recomends onthe oil cap or the owners manual. Not like anyone is saying that your car is not going to last and will eat oil if you run dino. I do not see anything like that so I just do not understand where you get some of the stuff you try to toss out at people that like synthetic? WHy do you hate people so much for not useing dino? WHat is your problem? You obviously have some issues so just toss them out so we can work through them and all get back to getting along and haveing some fun!It is not like this board would have much trafic if we all only discussed dino oil now would it? Once you get past the it's cheap and does an just dandy job in those car's that are allowed under warranty to use it discussion that would be the end of the board.

You do not see me or any of the pro-synthetic people heckleing people when they state they want to use dino. We never get upset over someone wanting to use dino and not synthetic. We definately do not go off on torrents about how evil,foolish and twisted people that use dino oil are and how bad it is for the environment etc.........

SO I would say lets just get along. WHy have a huge rift heck have dino,synthetic and semi-synthetic in my oil stash. I have 5W30,10W30,5W40,0W40 and soon 0W10. If I can get along with thick and thin dino and synthetic anyone can. In the end it is about personel choice. I can not get $.49 dino oil like you can Bill so for me synthetic is makes a lot of sense since it is not that much more then dino in my neck of the woods! Next time I am AutoZone I will see what the most expensive dino oil is just for the record. Peace brother Bill and I hope you can relax I hate to see anyone getting so stired up over something as mundane as crankcase oil!-Always Your Friend in Oil Fun John!!!LOL
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John, no hard feelings.

I doubt conventional oils cost the same as syn in your part of the country. I'd bet the syn (I've been back east, mid west and all over the USA and SADLY I do check prices of oils when I'm in town) is close to twice as much.

As far as putting words in peoples mouths, Sorry don't do that.

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You do not see me or any of the pro-synthetic people heckleing people when they state they want to use dino. We never get upset over someone wanting to use dino and not synthetic. We definately do not go off on torrents about how evil,foolish and twisted people that use dino oil are and how bad it is for the environment etc........


You do need to read here and see exactly what you posted above happens MORE than NOT.

It is harder here to defend using conventional oils than syn.

Anytime you have a UOA that is good with conventional oil, the results are bad or not actual due to the UOA being from this lab, its only a $xx UOA that shows nothing, the engine is easy on oil, the engine is operated easy, etc.

But if the same or worst UOA comes up with Syn, its better than sliced bread. Same labs, same use and nomally shorter OCI.

As far as getting cranky in my old age, yep... Been here too long I guess. Getting tired to this mindset that you must only run syn for your engine if you care about it. Because syn is the best.

Bottom line, 98% of the engines don't need it and most people are wasting their $$. Then they have to defend their wasting of $$.

Or like the OP of this thread, they are selling something.
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Again John no problems.

Take care, bill
 
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Bottom line, 98% of the engines don't need it and most people are wasting their $$.


Definitely true. Most API SM oils could be called syn blends IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
This has me scratching my head. I just don't see how a an engine with synthetic 5k mile oil changes could end up with "sludge". Even a Group II conventional can take a beating for 5k miles and shouldn't sludge up. That scenario sounds more like something one would expect from a Group I based oil. Is there any possibility someone is selling "imitation" VW 502.00 oil…????
Below is a long thread about it. It was varnish, not sludge. No imitation VW spec oils were used; I don't know of any period. The two dealerships who replaced my PCV system parts said they've seen this often with 1.8T engines. VR6 engines have had this happen too. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post851616
 
Here's the bottom line for me. I've stated it a few times ..but this time seems appropriate:

Use whatever oil suits your "utility quotient" in sensible economy.

If the service severity or service length doesn't support the use of a synthetic in either added utility or avoided loss of utility ..or the service length isn't "carrying the use" of the synthetic ..then don't use the synthetic.

This then gets broken down to sub-sets of sensibility ..and many can be called "preferences".

Given Bill's mega mileage, if he ever really pays retail (even discount retail) for oil, he could easily cut his oil changes in half and still get his mega mileage out of his engines. With his type of mileage, it would be a no brainer for me. I don't need a second career as a lube tech given the number of vehicles I already service in the extended fleet. Your time is worth something. This is just the math working here. Bill lives by "cheap insurance" ..some wish to use "more expensive insurance" and mess with it less.

Then we move to the "need" end of things. -30 to -40 starts in Canadian winters. No question in my mind.

Design flaws or engine "characteristics"?? Same thing. You have a life and need to assure that your engine isn't going to raid your wallet due to its own "bad habits". Sometimes this may include using expensive oils in a VERY expensive manner. So?
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It's the cost of maintaining a problem prone child.

Racing and/or combos of it and the above mentioned stuff make a very good case for synthetics. Some synthetics over others even. I guess, if one so desired, you could find suitable conventional oils and change them out like underwear. That may work.


Synthetics are also sensible when you're not talking mechanicals/engine characteristics/severity of service at all. If a person cannot shed the 3k/3m prison without them, then they are a more favorable choice.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
Bottom line, 98% of the engines don't need it and most people are wasting their $$.


Definitely true. Most API SM oils could be called syn blends IMO.

That depends on your OCI. Here in Europe you would have a difficult time selling a vehicle that can't go at least 10,000 miles (at most 18,750 miles) /2 years before (oil) service. Normal OCI is around 12,000 miles with 50/50 city/highway. This is Audi, BMW, MB, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Opel (GM). All use OLM and most consumers/drivers follow that.

Do that with mineral oil, and give us results here in 5 years time or so :)
 
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But that's the same magic that happens when you leave North America that allows you all those fine diesels that can't function in our hemisphere above the Mexican border. We do seem to have magic when it comes to lighter oils, though. They can't seem to function outside of those same boundaries with too much success.
 
True. The 3000 miles OCI hasn't been around here since ABBA was number one on the Billboard Music Charts
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Now I know why the NA automobile market is termed "retarded" by the Euros. Retro' might be a more understandable term for us.
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Originally Posted By: DB_Cooper
I've done several engine rebuilds on Porsche engines and the only pistons showing anything close to the Ford pic had worn valve stem seals, sucking oil down and displaying the same results. Worn bores too. Looks like an engine issue rather than quality of engine oil. I've seen dino oil engines in much better shape with more mileage. Could this just be a Ford?


No, it's not "just a Ford". The 302 is a VERY robust little engine (thin-wall block aside) that will live a VERY long life and take countless miles of abuse.

But they ARE abused (Mustang) and often not all that well maintained.

We do NOT know the history of this engine, how it was driven, whether it saw a power adder at all...etc. As I've said, I've seen a few engines with pistons similar to these, one of them was my good friend's '90 with the stuck rings. That motor also routinely saw a 150-shot of Nitrous. Yet another friend's 300K motor (torn down due to intake gasket issue) that was running Nitrous, but Syntec, had very clean looking pistons.

I don't think we can draw any sort of conclusions about the condition of this engine other than it was likely abused, and was run on dyno oil. And these two points really don't take us anywhere.
 
Bill, I agree with you I always say that useing synthetic is not about wear reduction that is all about the additive package and HTHS combination. THe lower the HTHS the more additives you see look at 5W20's. Synthetic is all about how clean do you want your engine to be? How long do you want to be able to run the OCI out? How much better will it is start in artic cold snaps? Bill my point was that in lue of $.49 sent Dino I am preety sure I will be able to fin Dino close to $3 a quart not counting gas stations. If I went to a gas station or my oil I am sure I could find an SM dino 5W30 would cost $4-$5 dollars but I am going to limit my self to Automotive Parts stores. Now if I have to chose between $3 Dino or $4 synthetic guess what I am going to shoose. In fact Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 at full retail price at Walmart not on sale or discounted is $4 a quar or $16 for a gallon jug! Currently PP is on sale for $3.98 a quart. M1 is $4.20 a quart at Walmart fullprice if bought in the 5 quart jug.So synthetic is a far cry from double the price if you have to pay full retail price for your dino.
 
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