Trinuclear Moly and Delvac

[GMorg]

Does the following quote from a Mobil FAQ suggest that Delvac utilized the Moly trimer?

"With their unique formulation, Mobil Delvac oils can help deliver performance beyond the boundaries of conventional oils because the composition includes Trimer Core chemistry, a powerful additive technology that resists oil degradation, reduces sludge buildup, and prevents wear — ultimately extending drain intervals and engine life."

Source URL:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English-LCW/heavydutyengineoils_faqs.aspx

 

[boxcartommie22]

i think its nothing but marketing.imho

 

[JAG]

I think it refers to moly trimer because I don't know any other additive that could be referred to as a trimer and because that additive does the things they listed.

 

[turbowhistle]

Never tried Mobil Delvac, but I know it's good oil. I have had good luck with Chevron Delo 15w40 which is supposed to contain a good dose of moly as well.

 

[98Auburn]

Delvac does have some moly in it. I use the 15W-40 in three different applications with all the oil samples coming back with 35-45ppm of moly. This is a very good oil in diesel applications that are not high is soot. I have also used DELO and Rotella. I like the Delvac!

 

[boxcartommie22]

no matter what car i had mobil 1 made my engine click in the am cold start that was years ago..

 

[boxcartommie22]

now i have to say i like delvac 1

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
Does the following quote from a Mobil FAQ suggest that Delvac utilized the Moly trimer?

"With their unique formulation, Mobil Delvac oils can help deliver performance beyond the boundaries of conventional oils because the composition includes Trimer Core chemistry, a powerful additive technology that resists oil degradation, reduces sludge buildup, and prevents wear — ultimately extending drain intervals and engine life."

Source URL:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English-LCW/heavydutyengineoils_faqs.aspx

Yes, exactly, they are referring to trinuclear (= trimer = three Mo atoms per organic molecule) moly, which is patented by the Infineum additive company, coowned by ExxonMobil and Shell. Trinuclear moly is an excellent antiwear, antioxidant, and friction-modifer additive that works at very low Mo ppm levels, which means it adds very little to the overall ash content (= metal content) of the oil.

A better explanation is at the Mobil Delvac 1300 Super datasheet that repeats what I said above:

* Trimer additive technology is a patented additive technology that imparts outstanding wear performance, effective oxidation resistance and improved frictional properties while contributing little to the overall ash content enabling Mobil Delvac 1300 Super to deliver performance beyond the boundaries of industry requirements of API CJ-4.

(From http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1300_Super.aspx)

I don't think there is any better antiwear additive than the trinuclear moly and it's such a peace of mind that you know for sure that this oil has in it this absolutely best antiwear additive out there. Normally, oil manufacturers don't disclose their additive types; therefore, this is a very welcome exception.

 

[martinq]

The trimer additive seems to be very popular now. Even though few advertise it I suspect that most oils with 50~100ppm of moly are using it. I don't think there would be significant benefit for adding such low quantities of moly unless it was the trimer type.

Look at the PQIA test results as an example:
http://www.pqiamerica.com/Nov2013/5W20consolidatedl.html
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/HDEO SUMMARYrev2.html

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: martinq
The trimer additive seems to be very popular now. Even though few advertise it I suspect that most oils with 50~100ppm of moly are using it. I don't think there would be significant benefit for adding such low quantities of moly unless it was the trimer type.

Look at the PQIA test results as an example:
http://www.pqiamerica.com/Nov2013/5W20consolidatedl.html
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/HDEO SUMMARYrev2.html

It's a possibly. However, there are so many dozen moly formulations out there and trinculear moly is only one of them. Each oil-additive company (Infineum, Afton, Oronite, Lubrizol, Vanderbilt, Adeka, etc.) makes half a dozen or more moly formulations of their own. Some other moly formulations may also claim effectiveness at low Mo ppm. In addition, they use other types of organic and inorganic antiwear additives along with moly in the same additive package, reducing the amount of moly used, sometimes to zero.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Each oil-additive company (Infineum, Afton, Oronite, Lubrizol, Vanderbilt, etc.) makes half a dozen or more moly formulations of their own. Some other moly formulations may also claim effectiveness at low Mo ppm. In addition, they use other types of organic and inorganic antiwear additives along with moly in the same additive package, reducing the amount of moly used, sometimes to zero.

That's really interesting, thanks for the insight.

Can you name any specific moly-additives that would likely be used in the same concentration as Infineums trimer type?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: martinq
That's really interesting, thanks for the insight.

Can you name any specific moly-additives that would likely be used in the same concentration as Infineums trimer type?

Sure. Again, there are so many moly additives out there, and I don't know which one is recommended at which ppm level and used in which combination with which other antiwear additives. As I said, sometimes they don't even use any moly at all in the antiwear-additive mix but use only other types antiwear additives instead.

See for example Vanderbilt's long list of their moly additives:

http://rtvanderbilt.com/petro_1_d.htm

 

[Gokhan]

For reference purposes, here is the presentation (PDF file) on the Infineum trinuclear moly.

 

[martinq]

If you look back at older tests there seems to be a greater range of moly content. More recent results seem to group in levels of 0, 40-50 and 80-100.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/testresults3a.html
This 5w30 test (2010-02) shows levels of:
0 = 3
40 = 2
80 = 1
160 = 2
220 = 2

http://www.pqiamerica.com/testresultsmay2011.html
5w30 (2011-05)
0 = 3
10 = 4
40 = 3
160 = 1

http://www.pqiamerica.com/testresultssep2011.html
http://www.pqiamerica.com/testresultssep2011page2.html
5w30 (2011-09)
0 = 5
40 = 3
80 = 3
120 = 1
270 = 1

http://www.pqiamerica.com/November 2011 samples/testresultsnovbatch22011.html
http://www.pqiamerica.com/November%202011%20samples/testresultsnovbatch2%2810W-30%292011.html
5w30 & 10w30 (2011-11)
0 = 1
40 = 4
80 = 3
160 = 2

http://www.pqiamerica.com/Janaury 2012 test results/Jan2012b1.html
5w30 (2012-01)
0 = 1
40 = 2
80 = 3

http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/HDEO SUMMARYrev2.html
http://www.pqiamerica.com/Nov2013/5W20consolidatedl.html
5w20, 5w30, 15w40 (2013)
0 = 20
17 = 1 ?
40 = 19
80 = 10
120 = 1
170 = 1
300 = 1

 

[Gokhan]

Yes, moly technology has been improving. However, as I said, there are many formulations out there and the trinuclear (three Mo atoms per organic molecule) moly DTC is only one of the many dozen formulations. There are many other new formulations that require less Mo ppm levels than in the past.

For example, this is the Japanese company Adeka's Sakura-Lube line of organic-moly formulations. Some formulations are DTC like the trinuclear moly; some are new; however, I don't know if any is trinuclear (three Mo atoms per molecule). Dinuclear (two Mo atoms per molecule) moly is very common but the trinuclear moly is probably strictly patented by Infineum:

Click here for the larger image.

So, the long story short, low Mo ppm doesn't mean that it's the Infineum trinuclear moly, as there are more than half a dozen major additive companies out there, and each company, even Infineum itself, makes many different moly formulations, some requiring less Mo ppm levels than the older moly formulations in the past. Lower Mo ppm levels are mandated by lower-ash-level (= lower-metal-level) specs of the modern engine oils like SN/GF-5 and for these reason additive companies have been developing more effective Mo formulations, requiring less Mo ppm levels. Chances are that many of these newer low-ppm moly additives are not trinuclear moly because of the Infineum patent.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
So, the long story short, low Mo ppm doesn't mean that it's the Infineum trinuclear moly

Got it, thanks. Ton of great info here!

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Lower Mo ppm levels are mandated by lower-ash-level (= lower-metal-level) specs of the modern engine oils like SN/GF-5 and for these reason additive companies have been developing more effective Mo formulations, requiring less Mo ppm levels. Chances are that many of these newer low-ppm moly additives are not trinuclear moly because of the Infineum patent.

That makes good sense. I didn't think that the Infineum trimer was being used in such a wide scope as many of those listed are low-performance/price offerings. So far all I know is Mobil 1, Delvac and Toyota 0w20 are using it.

Would be great to have more detail on what you're buying but that's not the game that marketing usually plays.

Cheers for the insight and info Gokhan!

 

[Gokhan]

Here is very a good read on trinuclear moly in diesel-engine oil from an ExxonMobil patent. Patent claims that, in addition to being an antiwear, antioxidant, extreme-pressure, and friction-modifier additive, trinuclear moly also acts as a soot dispersant in diesel-engine oil:

http://www.google.nl/patents/WO1999028420A1?cl=en

I also didn't know that trinuclear moly had two types, given by the following 3 molybdenum - 4 sulfur or 3 molybdenum - 7 sulfur core configurations in the DTC (dithiocarbamate) organic molecules (pics taken from the patent above):

Mo_3S_4(DTC)_4:

Mo_3S_7(DTC)_4: