Trabant 601/ Sprag clutch / HLP 68 questions

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I gave this Turbine 46 lubricant a try Thursday at 38F/3C (if that matters). I'm not sure not what type of oil this is. Wheather the name "turbine" implies it's application (high speed turbine applications). I know it's used in pump gearboxes that run 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

I also replaced 25% of the oil with Marvel's Mystery oil. If you live outside the North America you may have never heard of this stuff. It's not really an oil but more of a solvent. My neighbor swore by it. He said he used it in the oil and gas of his lawnmowers and one had the original rings in it and was well over 40 years old. Of course the money he spent on MMO over those years he could have replaced the engine 10 times over!

For the first few miles, the freewheel device did not want to engage then eventually hesitating at times (as it has been doing). One trick I found when this happens is to go back to 3rd gear, rev it up to 70 KPH, press in the clutch and let the engine fall back to idle speed then goto 4th gear and slowely let out on the clutch while giving it a slight but of gas.

I have no idea why the device is more likely to engage at idle than from going directly from 3rd gear to 4th. I can put the transmisison into 4th gear while not moving and stall the engine.

The device does not "slip" once it's engaged. It's as if the rollers are slipping while freewheeling them all of a sudden then grab.

The rest of the day it engaged perfectly and never skipped a beat.

A few thoughts:

1) It took awhile for the 10W30 motor oil to work it's way out of the freewheel device and the new oil to work it's way in.

2) Friction inside the gearbox eventually heats the oil up and makes it thinner allowing the device to engage easier.

3) Some sort of additives in motor oil and gear oil is not compatible with the freewheel device. Motor and gear oil is stickier or tackier than hydraulic oil.

4) The MMO is cleaning off the freewheel device (or reduced the viscosity even more).

5) Thinner lubricants are allowing a worn freewheel device to simply engage better.

You would think after running Dextron III for over a year would have removed any [censored] inside the gearbox since this stuff is loaded with detergents. I can see one of the gears through the filler port and I don't see any sludge buildup.

I emailed the company that produced this lubricant and asked them if it was similiar to HLP 68 or if it was even a mineral oil but have not heard back from them.

I have not tried the Mobil SHC 626 VG ISO 68 yet which should be the same VG as HLP 68. One website says Mobil DTE 68 is the equivilant to HLP 68. But I can't find any info to see if SHC 626 is the synthetic version.

Once again based on my experience with lubricants, since the viscosity of the lubricant seems to be the key factor, I'm thinking of trying a 0W30 motor oil to see what that does.

Or it's just like anything else. Some systems just do not like certain lubricants. Just like you would not want to put SAE 20 motor oil into an automatic transmission even though they are the same viscosity. Or EP gear oil into a gearbox. Or 10W30 motor oil into a differential.

I'm going to give this current turbine 42 a shot for awhile before swapping it out swapping out transmissions.

Another thought. This device is apparantly found automatic transmissions. My boss (who is cheap) has an old S-10 pickup and he says the transmission in his slips until the engine reaches normal operating temperature. So he just lets it idle in his driveway for about 15 minutes before heading off to work. Once he says the transmission is warmed up, it does not slip.

So if this problem is common with automatics, why does my transmission require a warmup before the freewheel device engages.
 
.R&O oils are turbine oils. Nothing special about these lubricants. Do not use an EP type lubricant(any slippery additive) in a sprag type clutch.The sprags will slip and the unit will be destroyed by heat. I saw more than one backstop on our coal conveyor head shafts turned into boat anchors by people who should have stuck to operating equipment and stayed away from pm.
 
Originally Posted By: TurboFiat124
What does "R&O" mean?
Apparently "rust and oxidation" as in R&O-inhibited. Sounds like a very basic feature.
 
"Rust and Oxidation"..typical steam turbines need R and O additives, plus the ability to demulsify water from the turbine glands.

Anti wear/EP not a requirement, as the machines are designed to be hydrodynamic (for a 150,000 hour design life, you don't ever trust boundary/mixed)
 
I thought I’d give an update since my last visit.

First of all this elusive HLP 68 I’ve been searching for in the United States: Apparently it’s not as elusive as I thought it was. It just goes by a different name. AW 68, ISO VG 68, Tractor hydraulic oil, mineral oil. Someone told me HLP 68 contains a zinc additive which the Mystik ISO VG 68 also contains according to the MSDS so I’ve pretty much convinced I’ve found it. I’m not sure what the zinc additive is supposed to do.

One guy said that IFA/VEB/Sachenring (the company that built the car) did extensive tests using different lubricants and determined HLP 68 was the best lubricant for these gearboxes. But let’s be realistic. The DDR was controlled by the USSR. They got all their petroleum products from them. In fact in 1985, the Soviet Union cut back their supply of gasoline so to compensate they redesigned the carburetor to run leaner under cruise to use less fuel! So who is to say HLP 68 was perhaps the only gear oil available? I posted a list alternative lubricants that could be used depending upon which Eastern Bloc country the car was in but it got deleted. One of which was SAE-30 motor oil. So really looks to me like you could use just about anything.

I’ve collected some data on various lubricants I’ve tried out. All tests were conducted between 32F to 40F (0C to 4C). These numbers probably don’t mean a lot since the transmission gets nowhere near 100C. In the summer I can drain it out and it doesn’t even feel hot enough to burn.


Lubricant: CsT@100C

---------------------------------
Diesel (1.7 to 4.1 cSt) at 40°C
AW 32 5.3
AW 46 6.65
Dextron 7.0
Mercon 7.5
AW 68 8.6
0W20 8.7
SAE30 9.9

Not particularly in this order!

10W30. Works so-so. Meaning I may have to drive the car 5 miles before the freewheel device will engage. Initially I used SAE 30 when I got the car which worked well, then when the freewheel started giving me issues in the summer of 2013, switched the Dextron which worked well up until this fall.

I tried a lubricant called Turbine 42. The freewheel device did not like this stuff at all!

I did a diesel fuel flush. I just went up the road and back for a few minutes. After the first flush a bunch of silver metallic gunk came out with it. The second flush was clean. Using diesel fuel, the sprag clutch engaged perfectly and smoothly as soon as I shifted into 4 gear out of my driveway. But I realize diesel is not a lubricant so it shouldn’t be used long term.

I then tried Ford Mercon. With this stuff all it took was about a mile/2 kilometers and engaged smoothly the rest of the day.
I then tried 0W20 motor oil. The freewheel device did not like this stuff at all! By all accounts it should have worked better in freezing weather than automatic transmission fluid. From what I’ve read ATF is close to straight 20 weight motor oil. So why did 0W20 not work as well?

I have not tried the Citgo Mystik AW 68 I got from Tractor Supply but it’s in the transmission right now. We got 8” of snow dumped on us this week so there is enough salt on the roads to cure 10,000 hams.

While at O’Reliey’s auto parts I noticed they sell an AW 32, AW 42 and a AW 68 Tractor Hydraulic oil. And a multi weight hydraulic oil 32/46/68. It’s only available in 5 gallon (20 liter) buckets. I only need 1.5 liters. Amsoil sells a synthetic 22/32/42/68 but at $159 for a 5 gallon bucket.

Here is what baffles me. The viscosity of the lubricant seems to dictate how well the freewheel device engages. But when I compare the CsT to each fluid does not necessarily seem to play a part which I don’t understand.

If Mercon has a higher CsT than the Turbine 42 and 0W20 then why does it work better when the other two don’t work at all? Should I be taking into account the viscosity index concerning these lubricants?

I was told if the freewheel device has issues engaging in any temperature using HLP 68 then it’s worn out and needs to be replaced. Either the rollers are worn, the drum has flat spots or the spring is weak. Whichever the case maybe. I read the freewheels are good for 60,000 kilometers. My speedometer is showing 83,000 kilometers. So if the device is original, then it’s past it’s life expectancy. And using a thinner weight oil is just a band aid solution.

If the AW 68 does not work well in freezing weather, I considered trying AW 32 to see what effect that has. Then switch back to AW 68 when the weather warms up.

Even if the recommended fluid is a HLP 68 (AW 68), would it be acceptable to use AW 32 in freezing weather? If it works well then I suppose I could try the multi-weight hydraulic oil.

Is it common to use thinner lubricants in winter weather particularly when the equipment is older?

Here is yet another question. Is there a difference between motor oil, gear oil and hydraulic oil when used in a gearbox? I can’t understand why ATF seems to work the best (well other than diesel fuel). So perhaps if I used the correct type of lubricant (even if it’s thicker) might do the trick.

One more thing. Maybe the reason I saw a big improvement using Mercon over Dextron wasn’t necessarily the type of ATF but the fact I flushed any gunk out of the gearbox. Although not found in any shop manual, some owners have suggested it’s common to routinely flush the gearboxes out with diesel fuel every now and then because any sludge buildup can affect the operating of the freewheel device. Maybe I need to do a third flush?

Any opinions?
 
I found this chart:

Figure2.gif


Even though the transmission calls for HLP 68 (ISO VG 68, AW 68) year round it get's nowhere near 84C. More like 40C even in the middle of summer.

So does this chart mean I could run an ISO 32 or even go as low as an ISO 22 without doing any damage to the bearings or gears in my transmission?
 
I would try one of the modern atf´s like dex 6 or atf+4.
They are atleast designed to keep gears alive unlike hydraulicfluid.
Another one that comes to mind is lo vis thf fluids.
Or something like redline mtl.
 
Some automatic transmissions have sprags.
ATF and powershift fluids are your best bet.
Conventional fluids might not keep things clean enough.
Don't use any solvents.

Try a full synthetic ATF or high mileage ATF.

68cst at 40c and varies 8.7-11cst at 100c(sae20 and sae30)

cst at 40c and 100c:
Pennzoil Synchromesh is 42 and 9.1
Castrol HighMileage Transmax is 37 and 8
Redline HighTemp ATF is 54 and 10
Honda PSF 9-11cst and probably close to 55 at 40c

ATF+4 performs way better than a conventional DexMerc and is worth a try. After that, I'd try Honda PSF from the Honda dealer, and then Synchromesh.

Another candidate is the racing Type-F ATF. ATI, B&M, TCI, Amsoil, Redline, RoyalPurple, ...should have some.
 
correct me if i'm wrong, but going off the premise that the diesel worked, functionally, the best of all fluids tried so far, it would a appear that thinner fluids are working better.

with that said,

the Mercon LV or Dexron VI are much thinner than anything posted above and, by most reports, are considered a fully synthetic fluid.

The Merc LV and Dex VI are pretty close in specs with both being about 29cSt @ 40°C and 6cSt @ 100°C
 
Diesel fuel? solvent and ton of friction.... I don't see it as thin working. I see it as cleaning up crud and total lack of lubrication.

Type-F or PSF over a newer HFM'd ATF to give the sprag some grip vs slipping on HFM.

ATF+4 is a great shear stable ATF and will keep it clean, is cheap enough, synth or high group selective base stocks, and available everywhere so worth the test especially since DexronIII worked so well. Amsoil ART(typeF) and ATD(TES295) would also be test candidates as the epitome of older ATF specs with the best base oils. Redline Racing ATF is a thicker typeF.

Synchromesh to see how it responds to a slightly thicker MT fluid with synchro additives. How's a synchro work in comparison to a sprag?

It was stated that Dexron3 worked great for a year. Its known to shear from 7.5 to 5.5cst. What caused the Dex3 to not work well?
 
Sorry for the late reply. I got my car fixed back in March or April. I can't remember but it's been doing fine ever since.

So I finally gave up on trying to solve this by using a thinner weight oil. I did not have the time to dismantle the transmission so I took it to a transmission shop. They charged me almost $700 to replace this worn piece plus the rollers and two bearings. Not even a full rebuild. Then I learned other Trabant owners in the US have purchased rebuilt transmissions and had them shipped over from Germany for less than that! Oh well.

What really irritated me the most was the guy did not get the circlip seated on 3rd gear which caused it to grind when shifting. SOOOO... I had to remove the transmission a second time! AARRGGHH!! Not that I don't make mistakes but when I do, it's on my own watch.

But it seems to be working fine.

IMG_20150401_180611505_zpskftatqog.jpg


IMG_20150401_180506136_zpsxwtwm9cj.jpg


I took the opportunity to do some degreasing. Ordinary degreaser would not phase the 30+ year old dried oil so I had to resort to using a wire brush, a spray bottle of kerosene and some #0000 steel wool:

IMG_20150405_173026027_HDR_zpsrtto5wny.jpg


IMG_20150405_173010473_zpsgiigmtih.jpg


IMG_20150405_173045013_zps9rcgt9na.jpg


IMG_20150405_173001070_HDR_zpsw8gt31kq.jpg


IMG_20150405_173033415_zpsl7ljtqce.jpg


IMG_20150405_173053759_zpshaaoe4vn.jpg


Seems like a good idea at the time dropping the engine and transmission in from the top. Until I tried to align all three engine/transmission mounts...

IMG_20150409_151519551_zpsviwaztnz.jpg


IMG_20150409_135325628_HDR_zps4i4xppp3.jpg


So the second time around I dropped the entire engine, transmission, axles connected to the subframe. Still not as easy as dropping the drivetrain out of a Yugo but somewhat easier that the previous method. Not as much stuff to unbolt.

IMG_20150427_141521430_zpsim2v9vgd.jpg


Some people claim they can lift the 80 lb engine out of the car and then lift up on the 30 lb transmission and pull the axles out. Well I'm a 150 lb weakling. I can't barely lift the engine off the ground, maybe 2" at best.


Further more, I'm convinced now that the red fluid that was leaking from one of the axles when I first got the car was automatic transmission fluid that someone had replaced to mask a worn freewheel device.

From what I've read, there was no such red die added to HLP 68.
 
Last edited:
Has anyone defeated the sprag rather than rebuilding it?

Seems odd that engine breaking in 4th is a no-no nit engine breaking in the other gears is ok.

Any reported solutions to the problem to keep it from reoccurring?

Thanks for the update
smile.gif
 
One owner said her Trabant would not freewheel in 4th gear. She took the transmission apart and discovered somehow had welded the mechanism to the input shaft!

Apparently someone did not like the freewheel mechanism or it was worn out and decided welding it was a cheaper solution that buy $50 in parts. Which is stupid. Why not fix it right if you already have the transmission tore apart. I've heard of other freewheels being welded up. For what reason I don't know.

The freewheel device is meant to prevent lugging the engine going down hills so it does not starve the engine of oil with the throttle closed. Otherwise you would need to declutch it.

Good thing that Trabant 4 wheel drum brakes are well designed and don't overheat!
 
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