Toyota 3.0L V6 - analyzed twice

[pdalpsher]

In the spring, my dealer did an analysis of my oil because I was concerned about 'sludge'. I was running Pennzoil 10/30 (bulk) and it was shot at 2400 miles. The TBN was down to 0.5 and lead was high. The engine had 5.4k miles at the time and the company that analyzed it said the lead might be from the bearings seating during breakin.

I switched to Chevron Supreme 10/30 and had it analyzed at 3900 miles...a bit longer than I intended. The viscosity was down (5/30) and the TBN was 4.5 and still showing reserve additive. The lead was still high but was quite a bit lower than the lead in the first test. The lab (Blackstone) re-ran the test due to the lead as it was the only thing not reading normal.

What I'm concerned about at this point is that the lead could be indicating bearing wear that shouldn't be there. With the next change I'm going back to 3k to see if the lead drops closer to normal. Based on these tests, I'm going to continue with Chevron oil. Any comments or recommendations are appreciated. Here are the numbers...

mi on oil 3,940
mi on engine 13,055

aluminum 3
chromium 0
iron 5
copper 1
lead 54
tin 1
molybdenum 11
silicon 19
sodium 2
calcium 1606
magnesium 6
phosphorus 787
zinc 923
barium 1

nickel, manganese, silver, titanium, potassium, boron all 0

viscosity was low 56.0 (59-68)
everything else was fine.

Test in spring (different lab)
Pennzoil 10/30 (bulk)
2400 mi on oil
~7500 mi on engine

copper 1
aluminum 4
chromium 0
iron 8
lead 131
molybdenum 76
potassium 1
silicon 39
calcium 2032
magnesium 9
phosphorus 875
sodium 6
zinc 992

viscosity 20w
TBN 0.5

 

[Bror Jace]

Holy accelerated bearing wear, Batman!

pdalpsher, yikes! Did you see the oil which came out of this car before you used the bulk Pennzoil?? Can you describe that to us? The color? The interval? What exactly made you start testing?

Now a sample of that previous oil would have been truly frightening.

I assume that at least some of that lead is from the fact that your motor is still breaking in, but that’s the highest ppm I’ve ever seen.

My high-mileage Honda Civic had a confirmed coolant leak (the glycol in antifreeze eats bearing material) and the worst lead reading I ever got was 19ppm ... and that was after 7,200 miles.

I wouldn’t be too down on that Pennzoil. It probably spent itself trying to clean up the gunk left by the previous oil. I bet if you were to give Pennzoil another go, you would see vastly improved results.

But, I like Chevron too. The two oils have a similar quality base oil (Group II+ last I knew) but I’d actually give the nod to the Pennzoil because it has a more up to date anti-wear package featuring about 80ppms of moly.

If you want to stick with the Chevron, I’d maintain 3,000 mile drain intervals until you see that lead level decrease by another 50% or so.

— Bror Jace

 

[pdalpsher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
yikes! Did you see the oil which came out of this car before you used the bulk Pennzoil?? Can you describe that to us? The color? The interval? What exactly made you start testing? Bror Jace

---

I started testing after learning about the potential for sludge with this engine. I post on Edmunds and Bob participated in several forums there. Bob's explaination of shearing in this engine made sense and I figured it was better to really know what was going on than just worry that I was doing the right thing.

The Pennzoil was put in by the dealer and I was changing at approx 3k miles. I changed the tested Pennziol at 2.4k because I was driving out of state for a long weekend and wanted new oil to do it. The engine mileage was 6.4k now that I check my service record. Pennzoil was put in at 1k, 4k and 6.4 so this was the second change with Pennzoil that was tested. The Chevron that was tested was my first change with it. If the dealer didn't use bulk oil my results may have been better with Pennzoil.

When I checked the oil it still looked good and very clear. It didn't smell and there was no oil being lost between changes. There's no gas, water or coolant in the sample.

This is the first experience I've had with oil analysis and it has really opened my eyes. I'm mainly trying to find out what I need to do to get a lot of service out of this engine.

 

[Bror Jace]

pdalpsher
There's many people on this forum who feel that bulk tank oil is lower quality ... or more often contaminated than oil sold in gallon or quart jugs. I haven't given it much thought but those arguments seem to have merit.

Anyway, I'd cut back your drain interval and test until you get results you can live with. If you want to stretch it out again a little, do it in 500 extra mile increments with more testing.

It COULD just be the way the Toyota is breaking in ... but I think the $40-80 in testing you'll probably do over the next couple of years is well worth it.

And, if you ever have a problem and have to fight it out with your dealer and/or Toyota, that documentation will be worth its weight in gold.

Lastly, if you feel more comfortable with Chevron than Pennzoil, that's fine. I buy it myself for certain cars around here ... and I own a little of the stock ... CVX ... and it's a real bargain at $67-$68 per share.

--- Bror Jace

 

[buster]

There is no way that oil should be broken down like that so soon. Sounds more like the Toyota Sludge machine design flaw. Run a good Synthetic from here on out.....

[ November 30, 2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

It's really hard to believe that was Pennzoil in the bulk container. But a dealer would never try to cut corners, right?

 

[dragboat]

The Pennzoil has more Zn and Ca than the SL version starts with in a clean analysis.

Was this SJ oil ?

 

[TooSlick]

This does not look like a typical wear pattern from this engine ....The ones I have tested show double digit iron levels with drain intervals of 7000 miles, but everything else is in the single digits, including lead. Lead is typically from bearing overlays, so you may have some unusual bearing wear occuring here - most likely from the oil turning acidic, ie a TBN of 0.5!

I'd switch to a full, PAO/Ester synthetic - Mobil 1/Amsoil/Redline/Royal Purple, etc if you intend to keep this car. This should allow you to run 6000-7500 mile change intervals and still get excellent long term results.

Since you know about this issue early on and have been doing oil analysis, you are in an excellent position to correct the problem. Thousands of Toyota owners aren't so lucky!

TooSlick

 

[worriedboutoil]

From my reading and learning on this site that Pennzoil should not have allowed for that type bearing wear in 2400 miles . That is just too much wear unless the motor is already damaged and the bearing overlay is being removed or there is bits of metal running through the motor .

Does this motor run at a very high fast idle when cold and make a bearing knock when started ?

 

[pdalpsher]

I don't know if the Pennzoil was SJ or SL that's another reason I now supply my own oil. One of the main reasons I didn't try to continue with Pennzoil was to make sure my oil got used. The two tests show enough differences that I'm sure they didn't just continue to use their oil.

I car doesn't knock or idle particularly fast when cold.

Thanks for all the time and replies. I'm not the typical 'member' here since I don't get too far into the nuts and bolts. My main mission here is to learn more and be aware of what is going on with my engine. In the past, I changed oil frequently and had that worked well. This is the first time I have some concern about the engine itself. I can't even imagine how bad the test would have been if I'd considered my driving to be 'normal' like most consumers.

 

[Al]

I would be worried (Not really an expert here). I would save the analysis reports bigtime and if the next analysis is off normal withe lead and in the same kind of range, I would open a case # with Toyota. As was mentioned you need to switch to the best oil available, or keep using what you are using and risk a failure shortly after the end of warranty, or cut your losses and head for the Nissan or Honda showroom.

Problem is that no one really can really convert or predict high wear numbers to engine life. But with lead-we know that engines have very much less lead than Iron. Iron numbers are not as critical as lead numbers (in my own limited experience)

 

[Pete]

pdalpsher, I have been following your results, since I own a 2002 Sienna.

Your vehicle is a Highlander, right? Also, what octane fuel have you used (not that this is related to gelling)?

To all those who immediately reply "use a PAO immediately in this engine," I am wondering how doing this will bring down pd's wear numbers (e.g. lead). True, if wear is occurring after his conventional oil has sheared, PAO will help. But, if the change interval is reduced to, say 2000-2500 miles, I feel a conventional oil should provide equivalent wear protection.

 

[TooSlick]

Pete,

This particular case has little to do with the oil shearing ....

When the TBN drops to 0.5, then the alkaline detergent additives are completely depleted, acids build up and start to dissolve the softer bearing materials. You really don't want the TBN to drop below about 4.0, just to be conservative. The Chevron was showing a TBN of 4.5 @ 3900 miles, so you could run 3500-4000 mile drains with it.
Howeve even a brand new Toyota V-6 should not have this much lead in the oil analysis.

It is always possible this is simply a mechanical flaw with one or more of the bearings, but you'd have to drop the oil pan to find out. Since this engine is under warranty, I think I would demand that the dealer do just that and look at the entire bottom end of the motor.

 

[mormit]

A lot of xW-30 oils are formulated to the low end of the 30wt range to so they can meet 'fuel conserving' requirements. Example: Mobil 1 10w30 starts out at 9.8Cst@100C. Many others are formulated to about the same viscosity. As a result it takes a bit lees sheering than you would expect to get down to the 20wt range.

This might be a good application for Schaeffer's 132 Moly EP. About 2oz per quart sump capacity should raise viscosity by about 1.0Cst putting you more in the middle of a 30wt grade. If you search this forum, MoleKule posted an analysis with about 250mL of 132 added to Mobil 1 in a hard-on-oil engine. Wear numbers looked good and oils viscosity remained stable.

[ December 03, 2002, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: mormit ]

 

[pdalpsher]

Pete,
Yes this is a Highlander. I've been using regular gas (87 octane) and it is either amoco or exxon as I can get the both at competitive prices in my area. The tech at Blackstone wondered if I tangled with some leaded gas...but no. I'm not aware of any correlation between the gas grade and the sludge issue. I never have any pinging that would indicate I need more octane. I'm planning on doing shorter change intervals to see if the lead numbers continue to drop. With the second test being the first change on the Chevron...if the tech didn't do a full drain there would be some residual from the previous change. I'll be sending off another sample in 2-3 weeks at approx 2k miles. I'm planning an extended driving vacation next year and I really want to have this under control before I venture off on this adventure ;-)

 

[pdalpsher]

I'm keeping the paper work...particularly the really bad one that the service writer said was *perfect*. At least I can prove that the oil I provided was an improvement over their oil's results. I will admit that the sludge issue rattled me into getting an extended warranty. I'm a person that buys and keeps...I sold a Camry that had over 220k miles and I still have some concerns that the HL won't make it that far. Of course, if I wasn't doing the analysis...I'd just have this irrational fear of sludge. Now I'm more concerned about abnormal bearing wear...

 

[ex_MGB]

Not sure what a Highlander goes for, but the additional expense of going to a synthetic or a blend at this point seems a wise strategy. I'd be very interested how Schaeffer's 7000 would test out in this engine.

Interesting to compare the Toyota 3.0L V-6 to a typical Nissan 3.0L VQ, reference the oil analysis spreadsheet on maxima.org.

[ December 06, 2002, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]

 

[Johnny]

pdalpsher: I would like to know the name and location of your dealer in Virginia. Maybe I can do something on my end to find out who they buy their Pennzoil from. It seems to me they need to have their tanks checked to be sure it's Pennzoil to start with and to make sure the oil is not contaminated with something. Do you know if your dealer puts any kind of after market additive in their cars. I have about 15 Toyota dealers here in Wisconsin using Pennzoil, and we have not had the problem you are having.

 

[Terry]

I don't normally comment on analysis results from another company unless you pay me to interpret the data.

In this case I must tell you that the PB/Lead should never test higher than 10 ppm in this engine, new or old.

Terry