Toyota 0W-20 (beside previous VOAs)

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Thank you so much for posting this as more Toyota and Hondas are using the 0W-20 weight oils. It is very interesting how both Toyota and Honda have oils that are high in Moly. I wonder if there is specific benefit to Moly that can't be achieved through other additives?

For my new 2010 Prius, I bought Honda 0W-20 for it's first change and I will stick to Toyota or Honda oil going forward for this car. Why no Redline? I want the car to last without issues as long as possible and the high ZDDP may lead to a shortened cat life, so no thanks for me.

Rumple
 
rcy, you're welcome. It's good to hear you think the numbers are close to your original results. The inconsistencies were bugging me.

Caterham, thanks for posting the manufacturer's specs for comparison. Both tested viscosities and the flash point are slightly higher than spec, while the VI is within two points. Although higher than spec, the Toyota V40°C is still the lowest of the four. Of course with sample/lab differences, I'm probably looking too closely. Also, thanks for discussing possible origin and the available UOAs.

Rumple, moly has generated plenty of arguments on BITOG. It's widely used, but new organic additives are appearing. Is the new stuff better? I don't know, but some of the new additives are working quite well. When in doubt, watch for how well they trend in UOAs.

See MolaKule's first post in this thread, "Controversial Moly:"

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1180354&page=all

See the last post by MolaKule:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1156893

MolaKule discusses moly levels:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149348

Postjeeprcr, I should have steered clear of subjective comments. Terry did say it contains thin esters at an unknown level, meaning they could be in the additive package or base oil. I'd guess the add pack.

I've heard of esters smelling like fruit or flowers (or rancid). But after doing some searching, it is correct that the esters used in motor oil have little smell. People are smelling the additives instead. Here are some references:

Red Line L.S. friction modifier:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1709736#Post1709736

"Since POE virtually has no smell, you are most likely smelling the LS compound." - MolaKule.

Need education on multi viscosity gear oils:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=513000&page=all

"Most of the odor you smell is the smell of protection from the Sulfur and Phosphorus EP additives." - MolaKule

Do all Esters smell sweet?
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1421757&page=all

"Mostly what you smell is the lower molecular weight components, not the base oil. Dribble a little oil on something hot. Smell it. Go away and come back later. Most of the oil will still be there, but it won't smell nearly as strong. Stick around and your nose will start ignoring the smell." - labman

"Esters are a broad class of chemistry. Volatile esters (low molecular weight) are often odiferous and are used in flavors and fragrances. The esters used as base oils in synthetic lubricants, however, are of much higher molecular weight and are essentially odorless when properly made.
What you are likely smelling is one or more of the additives. But if the oil in your bottle was old and exposed to moisture, then the diester base oils could have hydrolyzed slightly, which would liberate sweet smelling oxo-alcohols. Shouldn't affect performance." - Tom NJ
 
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Originally Posted By: Bruce T
but new organic additives are appearing. Is the new stuff better? I don't know, but some of the new additives are working quite well.


OT but more and more with oils necessarily being formulated with new compounds and additives and our $30 oil analyses being unable to detect them, we must realize that a VOA may give only part of the picture of an oil's chemistry. For example it may not be a fair comment to say "not much of an add pack" when there may be many additives that go undetected!
 
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21Rouge you're right, VOA's only give part of the picture. For one they tell you nothing directly of the base oil composition.
Besides all a VOA is really doing is confirming what a formulator will and will not tell you about their oils.
In my experience the most accurate info will come from the oil company when you can get it.
 
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
OT but more and more with oils necessarily being formulated with new compounds and additives and our $30 oil analyses being unable to detect them, we must realize that a VOA may give only part of the picture of an oil's chemistry. For example it may not be a fair comment to say "not much of an add pack" when there may be many additives that go undetected!


Very well said!
 
In a similar vein, below are the three MolaKule quotes on which I based my comments:

1. "Remember, new organic FM's will be replacing the organo-metallic FM's and AW adds."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1281436

2. "Let's clarify again so as not to perpetuate misinformation, that HDEO's and PCMO's do NOT use molybdenum dithiophosphate, but use Molybdenum DTC's or dithiocarbamates, which do not cause bearing corrosion. In addition, metal deactivators, which are present in HDEO's, are there to resist any metal attack.

MoDTP is used in hydraulic oils with no problems.

There are other purely organic friction modifiers and since moly is getting expensive, I see a shift to purely non-metallic DTC's."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1416975

3. Quote: I wouldn't worry about M1 oils. They are the premier synth oil producer in the world and largest PAO producer as far as I know. They have too much at stake to produce inferior oils and oil formulations are too complicated for most of to understand.

"True. And everything you have read or have been old about Mag, moly, calcium, etc., you may as well forget about it.

New chemistries are changing the face of that bottle of oil.

Instead, you should be looking at the performance and UOA results of oils and look for trending of wear metals."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1628272
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
21Rouge you're right, VOA's only give part of the picture.


At least for now, with engines being made from the standard materials i.e. iron, lead, copper, aluminum, etc, I guess trending UOAs do give some picture of engine wear. But I am sure that oil companies are using some fancy compounds that escape detection by any labs we use. So a VOA showing for example low calcium or low moly or low boron could be the result of their replacement of other agents which serve a similar purpose.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
21Rouge you're right, VOA's only give part of the picture. For one they tell you nothing directly of the base oil composition.


So CATERHAM is there no statistic that appears in your garden variety VOA that would be a tell tale sign that the oil in question is synthetic
 
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I am probably going to change out the factory fill at 2,500 miles and put in the Honda 0W-20 for an additional 2,500 miles and then change again for a 10,000 mile OCI from that point forward (i.e. 2500 miles factory fill, 2500 miles Honda 0W-20 then 10,000 miles either Honda 0W-20 or Toyota 0W-20 depending on which dealer I'm near when I remember to buy oil). I'm currently at 1,900 miles on the car.

Rumple


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Rumple, who long of an OCI do you expect to run the Honda 0W-20 and any plans on doing a UOA? If so you might be the first.
 
I just dumped some Honda ow-20 in a Hyundai today 4 banger today
I don't know if its an older variety, cause the bottles are kind of old, and it is SL rated......


it was the first oil change, at 5000 miles. If I can remeber, I will snag some of the oil, if people are so interested in a UOA of honda ow-20 send me a few bucks(i'm a broke soon to be dad!) and I'll send out the oil! I set the OCI sticker @ 5000 miles.....

its a news channel anchor around here so I will remeber who's car it is.......

nice car BTW, hyundai's have come a ways....
 
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CATERHAM,

For what it's worth, I posted a UOA on the factory fill of an '09 Honda Fit a few weeks back. Now, Blackstone said it was 5w20, but I'm not exactly sure how they know that (unless they did more viscosity tests than what is printed on the UOA). So I suppose it's possible it's the Honda 0w20.
 
Originally Posted By: gib
CATERHAM,

For what it's worth, I posted a UOA on the factory fill of an '09 Honda Fit a few weeks back. Now, Blackstone said it was 5w20, but I'm not exactly sure how they know that (unless they did more viscosity tests than what is printed on the UOA). So I suppose it's possible it's the Honda 0w20.


Yes, I agree it's a 0W oil but I don't know if it's the same as the Honda 0W-20 (Idemitsu) that's made in Indiana. The 100C vis spec' for that oil is 8.52 cSt. So the FF has either sheared down to 7.33 cSt, which is entirely possible, or the FF started off lighter in the first place, which is also entirely possible.
(Honda is on record stating some models coming to the States have a 0W-10 FF).
There is another Honda FF UOA on an 2009 Acura TL that's also claimed to be a 5W-20 but is definitely a 0W-20. (The last post was on Dec 10/09). While there was only 1450 miles on the oil, with a 100C vis of 8.61cSt it hadn't sheared.
 
Agreed about the viscosity. It could have sheared (it did run for 10k miles) or it could have been that thin to begin with (my mother certainly doesn't drive hard). But, either way, just thought I'd mention the UOA in case you hadn't seen it before.

Now if only I had sucked out a sample right after we bought the car last year... heh
 
I see you've gone with M1 0W-20 now which certainly isn't a bad choice but it's a considerably heavier oil at start-up temps compared to Toyota or Honda's 0W-20.
In fact it's 20% heavier at even 20C (68F) and much more so at colder temps. Next oil change you may want to go back to the Honda oil (which the engine clearly likes) or try the Toyota (similar formulation).
Besides, at least in Canada, they are both cheaper than M1.
 
Since we live in Hawaii, we don't see temps much colder than 65F too often, but you still make a good point and I very much agree. The high VI of the Honda and Toyota oils make them considerably thinner at cool temps despite also being 0w20 oils. I like that, especially for the Fit and how it did on the factory fill.

In fact, I had planned on contacting the local Honda dealers today to check pricing, but got sidetracked with other less fun things like my job. heh
 
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