Totally Confused - Amsoil 5W-30 or M1 SS
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quote:Politics and money is what it really comes down to. Bob: You mentioned you doubt Amsoil exceeds the specs. In what areas do you feel the oil falls short and why?? I'm always interested in learning more...
Originally posted by Pablo: Amsoil can easily pass the tests. My guess as to why not just get the easy certification: They do not want to be bound by the other (political) portions of API, nor do they want to give API the formulation.
quote:As others have mentioned, 50 cent Autozone oil passes the specs. Would you use that in your car just because it's blessed by the API?
Originally posted by XHVI:quote:Wouldn't the BEST way to show that they've passed all the API tests be to actually get API certification?
Originally posted by Pablo: Bob - with all due repect please tell me what portion of any API(sequence) tests any of Amsoil's motor oil fails?As I stated in another thread, there is something wrong when the (supposedly) "best" synthetic oil avaialbe is not measured or approved against the industry standard battery of tests that the other syns on the market are.
quote:Mobil 1 is the only full synthetic that carries API certification that I know of. Why is it that Neo, Redline Amsoil and yes, even Shaeffer has chosen not to have their full synthetic oils API-certified? Have a look at the API website and look at some of the companies that have API 10W30's, for example.......would you put oil in your car from the Beijing Oil Company just because it carries the Starburst Logo?
As I stated in another thread, there is something wrong when the (supposedly) "best" synthetic oil avaialbe is not measured or approved against the industry standard battery of tests that the other syns on the market are.
quote:It's "John Birch Society" answers like this (and you see lots of them on the various Amsoil web sites) that do a disservice to the product. If it's as good as Amsoil claims, it should be a small matter to officialy pass this battery of "minimalist" tests and get the API certification. The fact that the XL7500 oil IS API certified means that the company is not opposed to getting in bed with the API. My theory as to why Amsoil doesn't do it: Because their product base fluctuates so much (various base oil and additive suppliers, ratios, etc.) that they would constantly have to be retesting their oils to maintain certification. The API allows some leeway in how much the formulation of a given oil can fluctuate before complete retesting is required. If Amsoil is constantly tinkering with the formulation, for whatever reason, maintaining certification could get very expensive. [ November 19, 2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: XHVI ]
Originally posted by Pablo: Amsoil can easily pass the tests. My guess as to why not just get the easy certification: They do not want to be bound by the other (political) portions of API, nor do they want to give API the formulation.
quote:If you're talking about the various "snake oil" syn companies you see on the Internet, I'd say those simply can't afford to run the tests. But what other oil companies that are as large or as old or have the relative market penetration of Amsoil sell non-certified oils?
Originally posted by Tommy: Again, this is not only an Amsoil thing, there are many more companies that have also chosen the path of no certification - have they all done so for this same reason?
MolaKule
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I have to believe that Amsoil certified the XL7500 because it was aimed for the quick lube market where prospective customers needed to see the starburst for a certain "comfort" level or for warrantly purposes.
The problem with XL7500 is that it is now Group III and more expensive that any other Group III "fake" synthetic now on the market.
quote:Ok grasshopper, let me show you the way.... first, lets look at your Q&A Will AMSOIL Motor Oils void the warranty of a new vehicle? Absolutely not! Manufacturers’ warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service Classifications, for example, SJ/CF. (AMSOIL lubricants meet the current API Service requirements and, thus, are perfectly suited for use in any new vehicle without affecting the validity of the new vehicle warranty Absolutely will! Manufactures warr's are based upon the use of oil meeting SPECIFIC API SERVICE CLASSIfication and this is stated by your answer so you keep saying they meet and most like to think they surpass api specs but in fact Amsoil Fails the to MEET or EXCEED Api specs. Here's how... The failing side of amsoil for meeting their specs is they use higher levels of zddp. To MEET the API specs, amsoil would have to lower those limits like they did with the xl7500 series. ThereFore, They FAIL TO MEET those limits. Furthermore, To exceed API specs in this aspect, would also mean you not only reduced the zddp levels but lowered them even lower than required by api thus surpassing those specs, and that is not what your oil is about. So to tell someone you meet and surpass those specs is incorrect and is not true as they do not and will not the manufactures specs requiring lower levels of zddp for epa therefore will an can be an out for warr no matter what amsoil says. The magnason moss act does however cover this point also stating that if the failing component of an engine is due to the oil, then since the oil didn't meet the min api specs, then the warr should fall on the oil manufacture which is impossible to prove as most times damage is already done and the oil has been contaminated and any samples given will show this contamination like glycol thus the oil company deems the problem to have occured with glycol and not the oil but yet the oil could have caused the head to overheat for what ever reason thus causing the head to warp and leak glycol so.. the story is, which came first the egg or the chicken? This is why you won't hear of many if any oil company replaceing engines. So point is, take your warr into your own hands by using a non api CERTIFIED oil. You want amsoil, use the xl500, its not a bad oil and it is certified. [ November 19, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Originally posted by Pablo: Bob - with all due repect please tell me what portion of any API(sequence) tests any of Amsoil's motor oil fails? I consider API minimilist tests. Finally they are raising the bar a tad, but Amsoil 10W-30 just went through the GM V6 engine test at three times the normal duration with no problems. EDIT> The voiding warranty thing is also a myth. [/URL]
Tommy, none of the voa's have been deleted at least not by me.. and good point, that in some situations, you'll find the limits to vary from one batch to another but that all comes to q/c. Also, if memory serves, you are allowed a leeway of so much percent so it can get to that level and still be api spec'd but if your base is designed at those levels, it could with the leeway of percent actually exceed that level thus would be in higher concentrate than with current limits+allowable %.
I also think that voa is on an older version of schaeffers oil and not the new SL, but I don't remember. Either way, look at the new samples coming out and I think you'll find it a little closer.
As for why schaeffers don't api cert their only full synth is they have no demand for it as it will not provide much better protection than their blends which has side by side proven to hold up near as good and in some situations better than some full synths. The market doesn't demand our full synth therefore no need to certify. Like I stated before, I have not once sold one drop of full synth motor oil, just the blends and minerals.
quote:Bob, isn't the Schaeffer full syn the ONLY oil marketed by Schaeffer that isn't API certified?
Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY: The market doesn't demand our full synth therefore no need to certify. Like I stated before, I have not once sold one drop of full synth motor oil, just the blends and minerals.
Just to muddy the waters, I believe it is Valvoline for older engines which doesn't carry the API symbol.
AMSOIL has been producing and selling oil for 30 years now. They had the first synthetic certified by API. If the company was producing bad products, I suspect they would have long ago folded (since Al's pockets weren't very deep).
AMSOIL has their explanation on their web site as to why they choose not to license most of the oils. If you don't want to accept that, fine.
The simplest way to put it is probably that if AMSOIL didn't meet/exceed the specified standards, one of the big oil companies would most likely have taken them to task (perhaps Pennzoil before their first merger, since AMSOIL liked to pick on them for comparisons).
Within the industry (if not on this board), AMSOIL is recognized as the leader. Cetainly the folks at Lubrizol recognize the quality of the products. I don't know of any other oil company which published as complete specs as AMSOIL does (even though the web site may lag behind some).
Haven't yet seen any evidence, ever, in the past 25 years that AMSOIL lubricants have caused any problem.
So, if you don't like AMSOIL dealers, fine.
If you don't like AMSOIL Inc, fine.
If you don't like long drain, fine.
If you think all oils should have the API registration, fine.
In that case, don't buy AMSOIL (except the XL-7500-- and the only one of those I stock is the 5W-20).
What about GM specification 4718M, does anyone know if they actually tested to that? Just curious because their bottle states "SL" on it but they in fact have not tested to it. Their bottle also states that it meets GM4718M, but have they tested to it?
Not trying to flame here, just trying to get enough information to make a decision. The Mobil-1 obviously has GM backing, but the high temp numbers are low. The Amsoil 5W30 high temp numbers are better, but now I am not sure they meet any of the required specifications. Talk about being confused, oh my ![[freaknout]](/forums/graemlins/gr_eek2.gif)
quote:YES AMSOIL has been (key word) independently tested to SL. SL Sequence IIIF results The oil passes. I know how you could be confused, but please be clear on this: ALL the Amsoil motor oils mentioned have been tested and pass the API SL tests. They also have been tested and pass the GM4718M. Do you think the label is just a bold lie? Of course it isn't. [ November 19, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
Just curious because their bottle states "SL" on it but they in fact have not tested to it. Their bottle also states that it meets GM4718M, but have they tested to it?
to the best of my knowledge, that is correct. We take on the opposite approach of certifing all except the one that we don't sell the most of.
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