Total quartz 9000 energy 0w30 UOA from a diesel?

[Jetronic]

Is there anyone using Total Quartz 9000 Energy 0w-30 in a diesel engine? I've seen a few testimonials here but all from gassers.

I'm driving an Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0 JTDM-2 TCT. this engine calls for an oil with FIAT 9.55535-S1 certification, but one thing I learned from here already is that long life oils don't survive the long drain intervals so I will switch to shorter and fixed intervals + go with a full saps oil. The Total seems very good, and I've found a supplier who can do it for 24 euro per 5 litres. that's half of Mobil1, and about a third of what Liqui-Moly wants. Amsoil, Redline, Motul etc are harder to source.

The oil change interval is variable, the indicator came on after 22,000+ miles for the first time. I suspect this is largely based on the amount of fuel consumed, + the attempted DPF regenerations.

Factory fill was Selenia WR P.E. flcf.onion.it/commonfile/ENG/pdf/1412_stec_ENG.pdf . After about 3000 miles I added about half a quart of Castrol (see next paragraph) of make-up oil to bring the level back to max. After that the level never moved from max anymore.

I drained the oil and replaced it with Castrol Edge FST Turbo Diesel 5w-40. This oil carries a FIAT 9.55535-S2 certification, which is the higher HTHS version of 9.55535-S1. I'm not happy with this oil, I got noticeably more DPF regens, and noticed a lot of vapours coming out wen opening the oil filler cap. both symptoms are probably related. I got fairly good mileage though, my best was 3.6l/100km without town driving. I didn't reset the oil change indicator, as I'm still under warranty and don't want the dealer to know I do an extra change. I'll keep going for the scheduled changes until the warranty expires after 5 years, which is at least 2 changes.

When I reached 22,000 miles the OCI came on, and got the dealer to change the oil + filter. They used Total Quartz Ineo MC-3 5w-40 and I immediately noticed the regens being further apart, at least double the miles I got with the Castrol. Mileage seems to be about on par with the Castrol.

So, anybody using this oil in a Diesel? I really like the cold flow properties from the comments I read, and the slightly stronger additive package.

 

[riggaz]

Total make quality lubricants but no lubricant is good in the wrong application.

Do not use a full saps oil if you have a DPF mate

Stick with the recommended grade and shorten the OCi

 

[Jetronic]

I'm getting rid of the DPF in time.

I don't want to get rid of the rest of the engine though... anyway, I think I've shown there's more to dpfs then just low saps oil, as that's what the Castrol is but I still got a lot more regens than before or after.

 

[riggaz]

You haven't mate, your experience is anecdotal at best as the engine oil anomaly you had has nothing to do with it's saps content

UOA's will not tell you which oil is causing less wear, that's not what they are designed for

If you are removing your DPF then it won't matter but you can't regen a DPF that is full of ash, regens only burn the soot/carbon out of out of the DPF

If you shorten the OCi the recommended grade (which is a mid saps) will give you the best protection for the engine

zddp is not the be all and end all of anti wear additives (it's actually quite old tech) and more does not necessarily mean better

Shortening the OCi will do you more favours than going off piste with the grade IMO

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: riggaz
You haven't mate, your experience is anecdotal at best as the engine oil anomaly you had has nothing to do with it's saps content



Exactly what I was getting at.

Quote:


UOA's will not tell you which oil is causing less wear, that's not what they are designed for



That is true, and I didn't say that I did see that. but what I did see whas that even at very much reduced intervals to what Alfa Romeo suggests, the oils were done, with TBN approaching 1.0
[/quote]

If you are removing your DPF then it won't matter but you can't regen a DPF that is full of ash, regens only burn the soot/carbon out of out of the DPF

If you shorten the OCi the recommended grade (which is a mid saps) will give you the best protection for the engine

zddp is not the be all and end all of anti wear additives (it's actually quite old tech) and more does not necessarily mean better

Shortening the OCi will do you more favours than going off piste with the grade IMO [/quote]

I know about ash vs soot, I deal with DPFs on a daily basis. which is why I'm not concerned with the DPf as long as the engine isn't using oil, and I only had to add about 0.4litre after the first 3-400 miles. before that the oil level was unreadable, It's possible the oil level was never on full anyway. I even made a new dipstick, to make the level visible. Now that the oil is darker, I can use the original dipstick again.

I'm not so much interested in the AW properties of the ZDDP or any other of the additives in a full saps oil, as I am in the oxidation stability. If I were to go with the recommended C3 oils, I would have to cut my OCI in 3, and use a more expensive oil to suit. for wear protection I'm mostly counting on HTHS, which is also why I'm not fond of ACEA C2

I also want an oil which flows really good when cold, this engine takes a long time to get up to 90°C, typically half an hour in todays wether, and it's not even freezing. all city, traffic jams start after about 500 meters... From what I've been reading here this is what the TQE 0w-30 can do for me.

It's still relatively low in zinc and phosporus, and the TBN isn't the highest either, it's all just a little bit more than what C3 calls for.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1201748

 

[riggaz]

What I meant to say is, the oil is not the reason for the regens because the soot does not come from the oil (as you know, it comes from the fuel).

Have a word with Shannow, he's a bearing/aero design engineer

From memory going thinner will not give you better wear protection on start up in a hydrodynamic bearing

 

[chrisri]

Hi Jetronic
I can't help you with your oil choice, but can give you my experience.
I have 06 pre DPF Stilo Multijet remapped to 160 hp, and my wife had Bravo Sport with DPF.
On Stilo I'm using Selenia WR or Shell Ultra 5w40 and both oils are good for 15k, after that oil share rapidly and car start to use some oil. Zero consumption up to 15k.
In Bravo I used to put WR P.E., this oil would share even faster and I wouldn't put C2 oil in a FIAT Multijet with what I know today. Later I switched to Titan Gt1 XTL, great oil with no apparent viscosity loss after 15k. Car was sold with this oil fill due to gearbox whine (thanks GM).

 

[Jetronic]

I have no intention to ever use a low HTHs oil again, chrisri. The Factory fill was in there, and I used it for 8000 miles but it seems to be a an exceptional oil when you look at it's viscosity index. (not in a good way, I might add)

Quite similar engines, the 1,9 and 2,0 multijet, so your experience is very valid.

Are you talking 15k miles, or km?

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: riggaz
What I meant to say is, the oil is not the reason for the regens because the soot does not come from the oil (as you know, it comes from the fuel).

Have a word with Shannow, he's a bearing/aero design engineer

From memory going thinner will not give you better wear protection on start up in a hydrodynamic bearing



The majority of the soot should come from the fuel, but since I'm using the same supplier there shouldn't be such a dramatic difference, occuring when I change to Castrol, and again when I change to Total (or the dealer did).

I put 1000 miles on the engine since the oil change and only had 1 regeneration attempt (succesfull, as always). On castrol I'd have had 3 by now....

there's a LOT of vapours coming from that oil in my application, even hours after switching off the engine. So much even that the condensed vapours run down the MAF, seep through the joints and converge on the air filter housing. the majority of the vapours however will have gone in the engine and got consumed. This will add to the soot content and from my anecdotal experience quite a bit. How much of this oil got burned/evaporated when it pasted the compression rings on the downstroke of the cylinders? high Noack is TERRIBLE if you have a DPF equipped car, regardless of SAPS content. the oil level didn't drop visibly, certainly not more than 0.1 litres, but I'm guessing I had fuel contamination aswell, making up for the lost oil.

Lower viscosity at startup will give alot less drag in a hydrodynamic bearing, but will have minimal impact on the valve train (roller followers anyway in the 2.0). Too much viscosity could result in cavitation in the bearings, or overheating from not enough oil flow which is the only coolant for the bearing surfaces. 100% ester oil would result in higher drag in the bearings aswell, 100% PAO would be harder on the bearing surfaces on startup.

The pistons on the other hand are practically never hydrodynamically lubricated, but rely on boundary lubrication at the top and bottom of the stroke, and mixed or elastohydraulic lubrication towards the center. The additives in the oil are what offers protection here, even additives in the fuel can help esp for the top compression ring. Esters would go a long way aswell here, and they also hold the additives in a PAO/Ester oil mix.

I'll research where I can get an oil analysis done after the last dealer lube is out, with my previous employer Total did it for our fleet. My current employer sells Castrol, but maybe I can get an analysis done through them aswell.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I have no intention to ever use a low HTHs oil again, chrisri. The Factory fill was in there, and I used it for 8000 miles but it seems to be a an exceptional oil when you look at it's viscosity index. (not in a good way, I might add)

Quite similar engines, the 1,9 and 2,0 multijet, so your experience is very valid.

Are you talking 15k miles, or km?


15k km mate now, when car was under warranty dealer did 20k oil change (severe conditions). These engines are good for 500k km if treated decently. Quartz Ineo should be great oil, and 24€ price is brilliant. Not fan of the rest of the Total oil range though.

 

[Jetronic]

I like the reviews this old Elf Excellium oil gets, otherwise I'm not much of a fan either. but at this price, I'm not going for Mobil1 new life, which costs double and might not be any better.

 

[riggaz]

Switching from a 5w to a 0w will giver you very little in your ambient temps

You also get more side leakage in the hydrodynamic bearing by going thinner so you gain with one hand and lose in another equating to no gain at all.

Also having the correct viscosity oil when cold (thick enough) will protect the bearing slightly better until the additive package has heated up and "switched on"

Base oil has very little to do with lowering wear in a hydrodynamic bearing on start up

 

[Jetronic]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-synthetic-lubricants/

Quote:
Lubricity: Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to wipe them off. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications


Due to the polarity, esters stay in place after the engine is switched off, much like MoS2 and graphite. it's got everything to do with wear on startup, and was/is also Magnatec's claim to fame.

 

[riggaz]

No bearing is dry on start up regardless of base oil.

 

[Jetronic]

then why not run a monograde? the bearing is surely protected until the fresh oil gets there...

there's actually a thin film boundary lubrication going on until a few seconds after startup. The oil from previous run-ime gets squeezed out by gravitation or during startup.

Quote:
the main advantage of polyol over dibasic acid esters are much better high temperature stability, when used sith heat-resistant antioxidants and metal passivators, and the ability to generate reaction filmswhich protect metal surfaces under thin-film, boundary lubrication


lubrication regimes for main bearings:
http://kingbearings.com/files/Engine_Bearings_and_How_They_Work.pdf

Quote:

Engine bearings are lubricated by motor oil when constantly supplied in sufficient amounts to the bearing’s surfaces.
Lubricated friction is characterized by the presence of a thin film of the pressurized lubricant (squeeze film) between the surfaces of the bearing and the journal.
The ratio of the squeeze film (oil film) thickness h to the surface roughness Ra determines the type of the lubrication regime:

Boundary lubrication (h A constant contact between the friction surfaces at high surface points (microasperities)occurs at boundary lubrication.
This regime is the most undesirable since it is characterized by high coefficient of friction (energy loss), increased wear, possibility of seizure of the bearing and journal materials ,
non-uniform distribution of the bearing load (localized pressure peaks). Very severe engine bearing failures are caused by boundary lubrication.
Conditions for boundary lubrication are realized mainly at low speed friction (engine start and shutdown) and high loads.
Extreme pressure (EP) additives in lubricants prevent seizure conditions caused by direct metal-to-metal contact between the parts in the boundary lubrication regime.

 

[riggaz]

Viscosity recommendation are based on many factors, bearing clearances being one of the main ones.

When you switch off the car the oil does not all drain back into the sump, the oil pick up right the way through the oil pump to the bottom end bearings are still primed with oil.

The only thing that stopped when you turned the engine off is hydrodynamic lubrication.

The heat activated additives and a boundary film of oil still remain to protect the bearing when it's in it's boundary lubrication state for when the engine is started next

Because the oil system is primed with oil it only takes a fraction of a second for hydrodynamic to occur as oil is being instantly supplied to the bearings as the engine is turning over on starter motor

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: riggaz
Viscosity recommendation are based on many factors, bearing clearances being one of the main ones.

When you switch off the car the oil does not all drain back into the sump, the oil pick up right the way through the oil pump to the bottom end bearings are still primed with oil.

The only thing that stopped when you turned the engine off is hydrodynamic lubrication.

The heat activated additives and a boundary film of oil still remain to protect the bearing when it's in it's boundary lubrication state for when the engine is started next

Because the oil system is primed with oil it only takes a fraction of a second for hydrodynamic to occur as oil is being instantly supplied to the bearings as the engine is turning over on starter motor





Agreed, older cars without electronically controlled oil pressure switch / instrument cluster would shut down OP light while cranking easily.

 

[Jetronic]

It only takes 0.3 bar of pressure to shutdown an oil pressure light. That's a very minimal amount, and is only really an indication of oil being present in the pump and filter due to the oil pressure switch location. In all likelyhood the first thing that happens is that the bypass valve in the pump opens at startup, if you have a healthy pump and cold engine, reducing flow even more until the mass of oil starts moving in the galleries.

It takes quit a bit longer for the oil flow to reach the furthest bearings, which are the big ends on cilinders 3 and 4 (for a 4 cilinder engine) and the camshaft which usually doesn't have dedicated bearing shells, than it does to turn off the oil light. Low oil viscosity is very important here to get things moving through the galleries quickly. In fact when the temperatures are approaching 0°C it takes already several seconds for the oil flow to reach the furthest bearings, using a 5w20 oil.

google books - The Relationship Between Engine Oil Viscosity and Engine Performance, page 13 table 4

The FF oil specsheet for my engine doesn't mention the viscosity at 40°c but Castrol Edge Turbo Diesel 5w40 does:

Viscosity, Kinematic 40°C ASTM D445 mm²/s 82

and for the total quartz 9000 energy 0w30 this is:
Viscosity at 40°C mm2/s ASTM D445 68.45

That's a fair difference, which will only get bigger at colder temperatures. HTHS viscosities are similar for both oils, both are ACEA A3/B4 certified.

Bearing clearances are another matter. Have you checked the play in a turbo shaft bearing? It's a lot higher than for the main bearings and big ends, yet the same oil is used.

Heat activated AW additives are really friction activated additives. They only come in function after friction and wear has occured. Esters on the other hand are not depending on heat for their AW and FM capabilities, in fact heat will eventually cause them to desorp from the surface. hard to say at what temperatures, but the very high HTHS values for ester containing oils suggests it'll be above 150°C

How many crankshaft revolutions does it take to start a common rail diesel engine? you'd be surprised... 5-10 revolutions is not uncommon until aal the conditions are met. Certainly enough to wipe away your antiwear chemistry that was left over after the engine got shut down, where there already could have been an oil starvation issue an partial rubbing away of the phosphate glass film. And what happens with the leftover from the film forming process? In any case it's not anything you'd want to end up in your DPF which is why there are limits on the amount of ZDDP in low saps oils in the first place.

So yes, base oil chemistry can make a marked difference in modern cars as it does influence anti-wear properties aswell as cold and hot viscosities. base oil also has an impact on fuel economy regardless of viscosity due to the FM of esters specifically

 

[riggaz]

Where are all the engines that have failed because they have been using the recommended 10w40/15w40 and 20w50 mineral engine oil then?

Oh yeah, there are none.

 

[Jetronic]

are there? Plenty of failed engines where I work, and if not the engine, failed turbo's.