To Those Of You Running Mineral-Based PCEO's...

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While I do think mineral-based PCEO's can protect a "normally" driven engine on "regular" drain intervals just as well as a synthetic, my main problem with them is engine cleanliness. In my experience, they absolutely can not keep an engine clean! What bugs me is when I hear people say they've got 100K, 120K, etc. on their ride talking about how the PCEO mineral oil they are using has worked great for them. But how dirty are their engines??
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelly: While I do think mineral-based PCEO's can protect a "normally" driven engine on "regular" drain intervals just as well as a synthetic, my main problem with them is engine cleanliness. In my experience, they absolutely can not keep an engine clean! What bugs me is when I hear people say they've got 100K, 120K, etc. on their ride talking about how the PCEO mineral oil they are using has worked great for them. But how dirty are their engines??
My exact thoughts! One of the main reasons I use syns is to keep the engine clean inside.
 
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I've heard this over and over but what exactly is a "dirty" engine? Are we talking sludge deposits? Or a brown varnish that can be seen from the oil fill cap? Gobs of stuff coming out of the oil drain plug? I mean, what gives? What would make folks say a engine is dirty?????
 
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Recently saw my Dad's 4.3L Blazer with 150,000 miles opened up for the infamous intake gasket replacement. SPOTLESS with 3,000 mile Pennzoil 5w-30 drains and Fram/Pennzoil filters. Only thing I saw was the lifter valley, but you could see right through to the oil pan barely as well, no sludge/crud at all. Pretty much gets driven non-stop all day long every day. [Big Grin] My mom's car is the same; 3,000 mile drains with whatever crap dino was offered at the place of the oil change. Looking through the oil fill, the top of the cylinder head is shiny bright metal; no gunk to speak of. This one has had pretty much all stop and go it's whole life, much of it in extreme cold. [Big Grin]
 
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Personally, I think all of this "gloom and doom" talk about dino PCMOs is a little exagerrated. As long as you change you oil at reasonable intervals, I do not believe you have any reason to worry about engine cleanliness. Sure, maybe years ago with SF oils this was an issue, but now???
 
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I reject your theory. Diesel and gasoline engines are different animals and the oils and their additives are formulated accordingly. Telling people to run tractor oil in their new car is not great advice.
 

Jelly

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Originally posted by haley10: I reject your theory. Diesel and gasoline engines are different animals and the oils and their additives are formulated accordingly. Telling people to run tractor oil in their new car is not great advice.
Whoa there Haley...as long as the viscosity is appropriate, why not run a "tractor oil" in a new car?? Sure, they are forumalted differently. Mineral-based PCEO's are formulated for fuel-economy while still delivering protection for shorter drain intervals, while mineral-based HDEO's are all about protection and engine cleanliness and having the ability to run long drain intervals. Your "argument" makes absolutely no sense to me...could you please expand on it a little more and provide me with some reasoning as to why you believe this?? In regards to an engine being "dirty", I'm talking about varnish buildup and ring-pack buildup in higher-mileage engines. Sludge-buildup isn't a problem unless your engine is "sludge-prone" or you severly neglect your engine. Drew...congrats if your families engines are spotless, but I've never, ever seen a higher-mileage gas engine that was ran on a mineral-based PCEO be "spotless", or anything near that, even on 3K drain intervals. They are always covered in a layer of brown varnish. I guess, in terms of engines, cleanliness is next to godliness for me...as long as the engine has no inherent problems itself, and is well designed, clean, well protected engines run a long, long time before having oil-related problems. With that in mind, this is why I run mineral-based HDEO's or synthetics. [ March 09, 2004, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Jelly ]
 
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Jelly, you make a powerful argument. How do I know that if I run down to Wal-Mart and get Rotella -T, that it won't harm my cat?? Might I also get more noise because the lack of "friction modifiers"
 
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it wont harm youre cat because it is sl rated and they keep ppm in check of things which might do damage. anyways, i bought an old vw golf beater car just for the engine. the car was a piece of crap, rusted out, broke windshield, smashed in the side from previous accidents, but the engine was spotless under the valve cover. it was literally amazing. i asked the PO what he used for oil, and he said napa brand cheap oil. napa oil is formulated by ashland, the people who make valvoline. this engine had 160,000 miles on it and looked like it was only 10K old.
 

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Originally posted by haley10: Jelly, you make a powerful argument. How do I know that if I run down to Wal-Mart and get Rotella -T, that it won't harm my cat?? Might I also get more noise because the lack of "friction modifiers"
Haley, I'm off to work, but I'll get back to you tonight if someone else doesn't chime in and offer up a good response.
 
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quote:
While I do think mineral-based PCEO's can protect a "normally" driven engine on "regular" drain intervals just as well as a synthetic, my main problem with them is engine cleanliness. In my experience, they absolutely can not keep an engine clean! What bugs me is when I hear people say they've got 100K, 120K, etc. on their ride talking about how the PCEO mineral oil they are using has worked great for them. But how dirty are their engines??
My tires are dirty with mud, my brakes are full of pad dust, and there's a load of deposits in my exhaust pipe. I could probably clean them weekely and use some tire foam/gel, brake cleaner fluid, etc. Will my car run longer/better ? Cheers, CrzyCanuck [Canada]
 
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quote:
Diesel and gasoline engines are different animals and the oils and their additives are formulated accordingly.
Hold on there sport, the vast majority of HDEO oils (which I assume you are calling tractor oils) are rated for both diesel and gasoline engine use. In order for an oil to be "SL" or "SJ" rated it is required to be appropriate for use in automotive gasoline engines. Rotella, Delo, etc are all such. In fact, Mobil has recently taken to marketing it's Delvac-1 synthetic as an automotive fluid under the "Truck & SUV" Mobil-1 label. It has been established here that this is the same stuff as Delvac-1. I think Mobil is doing this precisely because many people have the incorrect perception that "Diesel Oils" don't work in passenger gasoline vehicles. I don't know where you are getting the facts to back up your righteous indignation. I sure would like to see said facts. John
 
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Don't you guys remember back to about 1996 - up to that time, most of the oils on the shelf were rated for both gas and diesal. 30 wt.,10w30's, 10w40's etc.. I remember when the change occured, because I could no longer find the recommended 10w30 diesal oil for my Kubotas. A lot of people didn't realize the government mandated change and were putting gasoline rated oil in their tractors. I called an oil company to confirm that it wasn't just a packaging change and that they did indeed remove the diesal additives. Now it seems we are going back to the old ways a bit. And.... Jelly, My '94 Dodge mini van with four banger was very clean when I removed the valve cover at 180,000 miles. No varnish, no sludge on Jiffy Lube dino.
 
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The release of Delvac 1 in "truck & SUV" bottles have only opnenly admitted to the public that diesel engine oils work great in cars.
 
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If an engine runs AOK with no issues with a crapload of miles (say over 150,000) and there is dreaded "varnish" on engine parts, does that mean its junk? Sure, diesel oils may keep an engine cleaner overall, but does that translate to longer engine life? (i'm not talking about a sludged up engine here - just varnished) I've run too many gasoline engines too long on so called crappy dino PCMO's to think that really makes a differece. The 4.3 in our old Chevy pickup is evidence enough that. An '88 pushing 250,000 miles had a valve cover off the other day. Spotless inside (no varnish either). All on a terrible dino 5w30 or 10w30 changed every 3000 miles...
 
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quote:
posted by Jelly: mineral-based HDEO's are all about protection and engine cleanliness and having the ability to run long drain intervals.
I would love to see a UOA from an extended interval, say 10K miles, on a mineral HDEO used in a gasoline engine. I'm concerned that the HDEO's are designed to handle the diesel fuel combustion byproducts very well, but may not cope as well on gas over an extended interval. They are very different animals.
 
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Hayley, mixed-fleet DEOs work fine in gas engines. Better, I believe, than over-the counter PCMOs.
 
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I have put some high miles on vehicles using strictly dino and reasonable intervals. How clean was the inside of the motor? I don't know because they never had to be torn apart! [LOL!]
 
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The PCEOs are definitely seeing lower zinc phosphorus levels, but I understand that is being compensated with other additives. A HDEO that is also rated for gasoline engines will work fine in a gasoline engine; however, they are optimized for diesels and get the gasoline rating because (I am guessing) most fleet owners will have both and don't want to stock a lot of extra oils (or mistakenly put a PCEO in a diesel). Theoretically, a PCEO would be optimized for passenger cars and light trucks; however, that old CAFE and cries of "save the catylitic converters" are pushing a bias into PCEOs (in due time I suspect emission police are going to be messing with HDEOs too). But we can get away from much of the PC oils by staying with a high mileage oil or a higher grade like 10w40 and up which don't have the starburst and energy conserving PC indicators. Should I run an HDEO? Therion and Jelly think so. Maybe they are right. Maybe I will come around someday. I am moving in the right direction, though. Eight months ago I had 5w30 in all my vehicles. Now my Pickup is on 10w40 and moving soon to 15w40 (PCEO by the way). My motorhome and minivan are heading to 10w30 high mileage. If I do go to the HDEO it would be for detergency and zinc phosphorus.
 
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