To make it clear-price for VW oil approval

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
4000 euros is just the approval fee, ie to get VW to look at the data you present then sign the product off as approved

Running the engine tests this data for 504 507 is minimum $3m, that assuming you get it right first time ! Getting these approvals is where the expertise and knowledge is needed and why the OEMs require oils with THEIR specs to be used in THEIR engines. It's crazy to ignore this and go by something you read on google

Not read on the google. I was involved in testing here. It is much less then $3m. This company would go bust if they paid $3m just to get this oil on the market.
If they sell $3m worth of this oil in next 5yrs they would be happy!


Think this is the big difference with the oils on the market, the big players do spend this sort of money developing the oils, certainly for the factory fill approvals and follow up service fill specifications. They certainly sell a lot more than $3m worth too

The original approval in this thread is a market general from an additive company that has been rebranded.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro


The original approval in this thread is a market general from an additive company that has been rebranded.


So what you are saying is that the blender basically purchased an additive package from Lubrizol, Infineum....etc that is "spec" for this certification and then was able to blend a lubricant with it and obtain the VW approval?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro


The original approval in this thread is a market general from an additive company that has been rebranded.


So what you are saying is that the blender basically purchased an additive package from Lubrizol, Infineum....etc that is "spec" for this certification and then was able to blend a lubricant with it and obtain the VW approval?

This blender is in the business for almost 70yrs.
It is actually oil refinery, and they are in business for a long time. However, their market is small. Also, they are actually big exporter of base oils to some large oil companies.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
4000 euros is just the approval fee, ie to get VW to look at the data you present then sign the product off as approved

Running the engine tests this data for 504 507 is minimum $3m, that assuming you get it right first time ! Getting these approvals is where the expertise and knowledge is needed and why the OEMs require oils with THEIR specs to be used in THEIR engines. It's crazy to ignore this and go by something you read on google

Not read on the google. I was involved in testing here. It is much less then $3m. This company would go bust if they paid $3m just to get this oil on the market.
If they sell $3m worth of this oil in next 5yrs they would be happy!


Think this is the big difference with the oils on the market, the big players do spend this sort of money developing the oils, certainly for the factory fill approvals and follow up service fill specifications. They certainly sell a lot more than $3m worth too

The original approval in this thread is a market general from an additive company that has been rebranded.


Not true actually. They are exporter of base oils to some of biggest oil producers. As I mentioned they are in business for 70yrs, so they do not have to develop oil from scratch.
My point is that companies who already have oils on the market that they recommend for certain applications are not submitting for approval not because of price of approval, but some other reasons.
Through various threads here people were saying: RL, or RP or Amsoil just do not want to pay big bucks to VW.
I am saying that is not reason. Issue is somewhere else.
In case of these 3 oil manufacturers I would say probably they do not want their blend to be exposed. I do not want to think that they think that their oil cannot meet demands.

 

[bobbydavro]

Its clear that who is providing that from the Blend code.

Additive companies make formulations then lets oil marketers rebrand them if they want to. Some oil marketers develop bespoke formulations that they keep in house.

The approval in the original post is the former where the company has rebranded a market general, the formulation has met and passed all the VW testing requirements

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Its clear that who is providing that from the Blend code.

Additive companies make formulations then lets oil marketers rebrand them if they want to. Some oil marketers develop bespoke formulations that they keep in house.

The approval in the original post is the former where the company has rebranded a market general, the formulation has met and passed all the VW testing requirements

All companies are buying from another companies various base oils or additives.
I know for a fact that this company, while buying some components on the market, majority of work does from scratch. Considering how long they are in business, they off course did not have to develop this oil from the scratch.
Still, point of this thread is not this oil company, and their oil, that you will never use. Point is, that for example, Redline does not have to pay big bucks to get approval of the oil they already have on the market, that is already developed, and that they recommend for VW 504.00/507.00. The reason why they are not doing it is somewhere else.

 

[Mathson]

So you have two possibilities to blend an OEM approved oil. Purchase a market general recipe from an additive manufacturer or come up with your own recipe and pay big bucks for engine tests?

Is API base stock interchange guidelines also applicable to these formulations purchased from additive manufacturer?

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Red Line, Amsoil and RP have their own loyal followings.
The VAG owner looking for cheap can use either Castrol or M1 oils with the appropriate approvals listed right on the label.
The average Amsoil, Red Line or RP buyer is sophisticated enough to know what he's buying and to be unconcerned with whether the blender paid VW four grand for its seal of apporval or not.
I doubt that there's anything wrong with products recommended by Amsoil, RP or Red Line.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
All three are noted for giving good personal advice over the phone, which can't be said of any major blender.
You can talk to your customers or you can rely upon the listed certifications to do the talking for you.
The larger blenders can't give much personal advice.
The smaller ones can and do.


Cheap? M1 5W30 ESP is almost $12, actually more expensive the RL Euro.


Your VAG turbos don't require M1 ESP.
M1 0W-40 meets the spec for both of your engines.
M1 0W-40 is ~$25.00/jug at Walmart, so it is pretty cheap.
M1 5W-30 ESP is pretty cheap as well, in that it goes on special three or four times a year along with every other flavor of M1 at Pep Boys.
For those with applications really needing an ultra low SAPS oil, this would be the way to buy it.
Nobody should be paying $12.00/qt for any flavor of M1.

I know very well what goes in VW.
This engine is designed around Low-SAPS oil. It is the US fuel that is reson why VW puts VW 502.00 in 2.0T, so that they can maintain 10K OCI.
Low-SAPS and 5K OCI are perfectly fine.
Low-SAPS is the only oil that goes in 2.0T in the EU.
Wal Mart carries $25, I know, I bought it last time there for my CC. Last time I bought 1 0W40. Of all oils I tried, by far the worst one!


You do know that ESP stands for Emissions System Protection, right?
I know of nothing with any engine that would make an ultra-low SAPS oil more desirable, and the VAG two liter turbo is not that new a design.
It's the emissions stuff that needs the low SAPS content.
WRT M1 0W-40, I find it hard to imagine that GC would be superior in service, although it does meet the spec.
Do you have any numbers for M1 0W-40 in service in your cars, or are your impressions of it strictly seat of the pants?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I know of nothing with any engine that would make an ultra-low SAPS oil more desirable, and the VAG two liter turbo is not that new a design.
It's the emissions stuff that needs the low SAPS content.

Low SAPS is thought to be good for DI engines as it helps minimize deposit formation:

http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/ConferencePapers/LowerSAPS.pdf

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Through various threads here people were saying: RL, or RP or Amsoil just do not want to pay big bucks to VW.

RP doesn't claim to "meet or exceed" any European manufacturers' specifications on its 5w-40 or 0w-40 in any way, shape, or form. It claims ACEA A3/B4, and that's it.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I know of nothing with any engine that would make an ultra-low SAPS oil more desirable, and the VAG two liter turbo is not that new a design.
It's the emissions stuff that needs the low SAPS content.

Low SAPS is thought to be good for DI engines as it helps minimize deposit formation:

http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/ConferencePapers/LowerSAPS.pdf


That makes sense, although I'd think that low NOACK would be at least as important.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I know of nothing with any engine that would make an ultra-low SAPS oil more desirable, and the VAG two liter turbo is not that new a design.
It's the emissions stuff that needs the low SAPS content.

Low SAPS is thought to be good for DI engines as it helps minimize deposit formation:

http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/ConferencePapers/LowerSAPS.pdf


That makes sense, although I'd think that low NOACK would be at least as important.

Yes, both are important, IMO. And so, an oil such as M1 ESP that meets MB 229.51 spec assures both - low SAPS and low Noack.

 

[avss1]

Originally Posted By: Mathson

Is API base stock interchange guidelines also applicable to these formulations purchased from additive manufacturer?

I think Yes. But You should have an agreement with additive company to use data set of original formulation. In addition Interchange guidelines do not cover laboratory and almost all bench tests. So you should create new oil code and do such tests.