I promised I will find document that states how much os testing for manufacturer oil approval.
Here you go:
Here you go:
To make it clear-price for VW oil approval
- Thread starter edyvw
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That's about $4100 USD.
Is the approval pricing the same for any of their certs, such as 502/505?
Is the approval pricing the same for any of their certs, such as 502/505?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just the price for VW to issue the official approval. However, before this can happen, the oil must be subject to a battery of extensive tests as per the VW testing requirements. What is the cost of all these tests? I think this is where the true cost lies.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just the price for VW to issue the official approval. However, before this can happen, the oil must be subject to a battery of extensive tests as per the VW testing requirements. What is the cost of all these tests? I think this is where the true cost lies.
Off course! You would think that oil manufacturers are testing their oils.
I was involved partly in this testing.
This manufacturer sent its oil to VW after exhaustive testing. On my part, manufacturer of this oil provided institution where I still work partly, to test oils in our cars. Every 16,000 miles we sent oil back to them. The car was VW Polo 1.2tdi CR. Then this oil producer sent this oil to VW, then VW sent approval for this oil for that amount of money.
That is why I am confident that Redline, Amsoil and Royal Purple are not sending their oils, because they know there is something else in that oil that cannot meet approval standards.
That does not mean they are bad oils. On contrary, maybe they are even better, but there is something in the oils that just does not fit approval requirements.
I hope redline etc are doing testing lol
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just the price for VW to issue the official approval. However, before this can happen, the oil must be subject to a battery of extensive tests as per the VW testing requirements. What is the cost of all these tests? I think this is where the true cost lies.
Off course! You would think that oil manufacturers are testing their oils.
I was involved partly in this testing.
This manufacturer sent its oil to VW after exhaustive testing. On my part, manufacturer of this oil provided institution where I still work partly, to test oils in our cars. Every 16,000 miles we sent oil back to them. The car was VW Polo 1.2tdi CR. Then this oil producer sent this oil to VW, then VW sent approval for this oil for that amount of money.
That is why I am confident that Redline, Amsoil and Royal Purple are not sending their oils, because they know there is something else in that oil that cannot meet approval standards.
That does not mean they are bad oils. On contrary, maybe they are even better, but there is something in the oils that just does not fit approval requirements.
I hope redline etc are doing testing lol
Originally Posted By: dparm
That's about $4100 USD.
Is the approval pricing the same for any of their certs, such as 502/505?
I would say so. I wa sinvolved in this project so I am familiar how everything went.
That is why I I think the stories how it is too expensive to get approval is just bunch of [censored].
That's about $4100 USD.
Is the approval pricing the same for any of their certs, such as 502/505?
I would say so. I wa sinvolved in this project so I am familiar how everything went.
That is why I I think the stories how it is too expensive to get approval is just bunch of [censored].
Originally Posted By: avss1
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
What is the cost of all these tests?
From 2 000 000 to 3 000 000 USD)))) but this is about new development of "original" formulation sponsored by Infineum or Lubrizol, not oil companies.
Could be. But we are talking about price of approval.
For example, Redline already has on market Low-SAPS oil that they recommend for VW 504.00/507.00. Now, what is dragging on this forum is that Redline does not want to pay for approval because it is "too expensive."
I promised I will find document that I have in folders that obviously proves that it is not too expensive and that there is some other reason why Redline and similar manufacturers are not sending their oils for approvals.
Some even claim Redline is like taking "higher ground." How yes no. Seriously? In business of making as much money as possible, there is no "higher ground."
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
What is the cost of all these tests?
From 2 000 000 to 3 000 000 USD)))) but this is about new development of "original" formulation sponsored by Infineum or Lubrizol, not oil companies.
Could be. But we are talking about price of approval.
For example, Redline already has on market Low-SAPS oil that they recommend for VW 504.00/507.00. Now, what is dragging on this forum is that Redline does not want to pay for approval because it is "too expensive."
I promised I will find document that I have in folders that obviously proves that it is not too expensive and that there is some other reason why Redline and similar manufacturers are not sending their oils for approvals.
Some even claim Redline is like taking "higher ground." How yes no. Seriously? In business of making as much money as possible, there is no "higher ground."
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If redline wants to have VW 504/507 approval it should buy all components ( base oils, viscosity index improvers, additive package) that tested in original formulation. No possibilities to change anything in formulation. You should buy PAO, approved group III, expensive VII and Package with more than 20% treat rate. In addition VW will make audit of Redline blending plant. And then Redline will pay only 3000 Euro)))) for the reblend approval if they are able to blend oil as mentioned above.
504/507 is very special VW approval with strong rules.
Of course there are another way - to spend own 3000000 USD for testing of Redline original formulation)))
504/507 is very special VW approval with strong rules.
Of course there are another way - to spend own 3000000 USD for testing of Redline original formulation)))
Red Line, Amsoil and RP have their own loyal followings.
The VAG owner looking for cheap can use either Castrol or M1 oils with the appropriate approvals listed right on the label.
The average Amsoil, Red Line or RP buyer is sophisticated enough to know what he's buying and to be unconcerned with whether the blender paid VW four grand for its seal of apporval or not.
I doubt that there's anything wrong with products recommended by Amsoil, RP or Red Line.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
All three are noted for giving good personal advice over the phone, which can't be said of any major blender.
You can talk to your customers or you can rely upon the listed certifications to do the talking for you.
The larger blenders can't give much personal advice.
The smaller ones can and do.
The VAG owner looking for cheap can use either Castrol or M1 oils with the appropriate approvals listed right on the label.
The average Amsoil, Red Line or RP buyer is sophisticated enough to know what he's buying and to be unconcerned with whether the blender paid VW four grand for its seal of apporval or not.
I doubt that there's anything wrong with products recommended by Amsoil, RP or Red Line.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
All three are noted for giving good personal advice over the phone, which can't be said of any major blender.
You can talk to your customers or you can rely upon the listed certifications to do the talking for you.
The larger blenders can't give much personal advice.
The smaller ones can and do.
Originally Posted By: avss1
If redline wants to have VW 504/507 approval it should buy all components ( base oils, viscosity index improvers, additive package) that tested in original formulation. No possibilities to change anything in formulation. You should buy PAO, approved group III, expensive VII and Package with more than 20% treat rate. In addition VW will make audit of Redline blending plant. And then Redline will pay only 3000 Euro)))) for the reblend approval if they are able to blend oil as mentioned above.
504/507 is very special VW approval with strong rules.
Of course there are another way - to spend own 3000000 USD for testing of Redline original formulation)))
I absolutely agree with that.
Just wanted to make a point that approval is not that expensive.
Production and development of oil it is, no one is saying it is not, and it takes a lot of time.
If redline wants to have VW 504/507 approval it should buy all components ( base oils, viscosity index improvers, additive package) that tested in original formulation. No possibilities to change anything in formulation. You should buy PAO, approved group III, expensive VII and Package with more than 20% treat rate. In addition VW will make audit of Redline blending plant. And then Redline will pay only 3000 Euro)))) for the reblend approval if they are able to blend oil as mentioned above.
504/507 is very special VW approval with strong rules.
Of course there are another way - to spend own 3000000 USD for testing of Redline original formulation)))
I absolutely agree with that.
Just wanted to make a point that approval is not that expensive.
Production and development of oil it is, no one is saying it is not, and it takes a lot of time.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Red Line, Amsoil and RP have their own loyal followings.
The VAG owner looking for cheap can use either Castrol or M1 oils with the appropriate approvals listed right on the label.
The average Amsoil, Red Line or RP buyer is sophisticated enough to know what he's buying and to be unconcerned with whether the blender paid VW four grand for its seal of apporval or not.
I doubt that there's anything wrong with products recommended by Amsoil, RP or Red Line.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
All three are noted for giving good personal advice over the phone, which can't be said of any major blender.
You can talk to your customers or you can rely upon the listed certifications to do the talking for you.
The larger blenders can't give much personal advice.
The smaller ones can and do.
Cheap? M1 5W30 ESP is almost $12, actually more expensive the RL Euro.
Red Line, Amsoil and RP have their own loyal followings.
The VAG owner looking for cheap can use either Castrol or M1 oils with the appropriate approvals listed right on the label.
The average Amsoil, Red Line or RP buyer is sophisticated enough to know what he's buying and to be unconcerned with whether the blender paid VW four grand for its seal of apporval or not.
I doubt that there's anything wrong with products recommended by Amsoil, RP or Red Line.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
All three are noted for giving good personal advice over the phone, which can't be said of any major blender.
You can talk to your customers or you can rely upon the listed certifications to do the talking for you.
The larger blenders can't give much personal advice.
The smaller ones can and do.
Cheap? M1 5W30 ESP is almost $12, actually more expensive the RL Euro.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
Yup.
And to add, what is the whole underlying premise that makes people choose a manufacturer approved lubricant? It's to ensure the manufacturer will not deny warranty should engine lubrication problems arise. These smaller oil makers address this by offering up their own warranties that will cover the customer should any such problem occur. They know the likelihood of substantial payout it low enough, that it makes more financial sense to offer such warranty than to subject yourself to the high testing costs.
Is this warranty as good as engine mfg warranty? Maybe not, but it does certainly put some people at ease, knowing that the company is willing to stand behind their product.
Another potential aspect - intellectual property and trade secrets. Is it possible that the oil maker must disclose the formula of the lubricant as part of this extensive testing and approval process? These trade secrets could make or break a smaller oil co, so maybe they figure that the fewer parties that are privy to it, the safer. Yes, there are confidentiality agreements to protect both parties, but this hasn't stopped many secrets from being leaked/copied regardless.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
Yup.
And to add, what is the whole underlying premise that makes people choose a manufacturer approved lubricant? It's to ensure the manufacturer will not deny warranty should engine lubrication problems arise. These smaller oil makers address this by offering up their own warranties that will cover the customer should any such problem occur. They know the likelihood of substantial payout it low enough, that it makes more financial sense to offer such warranty than to subject yourself to the high testing costs.
Is this warranty as good as engine mfg warranty? Maybe not, but it does certainly put some people at ease, knowing that the company is willing to stand behind their product.
Another potential aspect - intellectual property and trade secrets. Is it possible that the oil maker must disclose the formula of the lubricant as part of this extensive testing and approval process? These trade secrets could make or break a smaller oil co, so maybe they figure that the fewer parties that are privy to it, the safer. Yes, there are confidentiality agreements to protect both parties, but this hasn't stopped many secrets from being leaked/copied regardless.
Originally Posted By: avss1
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Just wanted to make a point that approval is not that expensive.
obligation to comply with the rules - that can be expensive
No I agree with that. Trading secrets, and other variables.
I totally agree with you and QP.
My point is that is is not expensive to get approval, and there is no "higher ground."
There are other variables that make RL etc not comply with approvals, and maybe they have something that works even better in that oil for that application, but maybe that is not complying with VW or MB or BMW.
As I stated in first post, I do not consider those oils inferior at all. Based on my experience, I would say of all oils I had in my car M1 0W40 is by far the worst, and have all approvals.
I am probably going to get RL 5W30 Euro just for the sake of trying it (car out of warranty).
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Just wanted to make a point that approval is not that expensive.
obligation to comply with the rules - that can be expensive
No I agree with that. Trading secrets, and other variables.
I totally agree with you and QP.
My point is that is is not expensive to get approval, and there is no "higher ground."
There are other variables that make RL etc not comply with approvals, and maybe they have something that works even better in that oil for that application, but maybe that is not complying with VW or MB or BMW.
As I stated in first post, I do not consider those oils inferior at all. Based on my experience, I would say of all oils I had in my car M1 0W40 is by far the worst, and have all approvals.
I am probably going to get RL 5W30 Euro just for the sake of trying it (car out of warranty).
4000 euros is just the approval fee, ie to get VW to look at the data you present then sign the product off as approved
Running the engine tests this data for 504 507 is minimum $3m, that assuming you get it right first time ! Getting these approvals is where the expertise and knowledge is needed and why the OEMs require oils with THEIR specs to be used in THEIR engines. It's crazy to ignore this and go by something you read on google
Running the engine tests this data for 504 507 is minimum $3m, that assuming you get it right first time ! Getting these approvals is where the expertise and knowledge is needed and why the OEMs require oils with THEIR specs to be used in THEIR engines. It's crazy to ignore this and go by something you read on google
When the boutiques say "recommended for", or "meets and exceeds", without the actual testing, they are not saying that it would meet VAG, ACEA testing or whatever.
Some of them take even written specifications to be "arbitrary" numbers, and as others have said, rely on the minimal chance of actually causing damage and being called on to pay for it.
OEM approvals are made to cover every odd thing that the OEMs have ever come across in their development and testing, and specifically their engines/their problems.
Boutique oils can't even fathom the failure modes, but are, in general, safe for the average user.
Some of them take even written specifications to be "arbitrary" numbers, and as others have said, rely on the minimal chance of actually causing damage and being called on to pay for it.
OEM approvals are made to cover every odd thing that the OEMs have ever come across in their development and testing, and specifically their engines/their problems.
Boutique oils can't even fathom the failure modes, but are, in general, safe for the average user.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
4000 euros is just the approval fee, ie to get VW to look at the data you present then sign the product off as approved
Running the engine tests this data for 504 507 is minimum $3m, that assuming you get it right first time ! Getting these approvals is where the expertise and knowledge is needed and why the OEMs require oils with THEIR specs to be used in THEIR engines. It's crazy to ignore this and go by something you read on google
Not read on the google. I was involved in testing here. It is much less then $3m. This company would go bust if they paid $3m just to get this oil on the market.
If they sell $3m worth of this oil in next 5yrs they would be happy!
4000 euros is just the approval fee, ie to get VW to look at the data you present then sign the product off as approved
Running the engine tests this data for 504 507 is minimum $3m, that assuming you get it right first time ! Getting these approvals is where the expertise and knowledge is needed and why the OEMs require oils with THEIR specs to be used in THEIR engines. It's crazy to ignore this and go by something you read on google
Not read on the google. I was involved in testing here. It is much less then $3m. This company would go bust if they paid $3m just to get this oil on the market.
If they sell $3m worth of this oil in next 5yrs they would be happy!
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Red Line, Amsoil and RP have their own loyal followings.
The VAG owner looking for cheap can use either Castrol or M1 oils with the appropriate approvals listed right on the label.
The average Amsoil, Red Line or RP buyer is sophisticated enough to know what he's buying and to be unconcerned with whether the blender paid VW four grand for its seal of apporval or not.
I doubt that there's anything wrong with products recommended by Amsoil, RP or Red Line.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
All three are noted for giving good personal advice over the phone, which can't be said of any major blender.
You can talk to your customers or you can rely upon the listed certifications to do the talking for you.
The larger blenders can't give much personal advice.
The smaller ones can and do.
Cheap? M1 5W30 ESP is almost $12, actually more expensive the RL Euro.
Your VAG turbos don't require M1 ESP.
M1 0W-40 meets the spec for both of your engines.
M1 0W-40 is ~$25.00/jug at Walmart, so it is pretty cheap.
M1 5W-30 ESP is pretty cheap as well, in that it goes on special three or four times a year along with every other flavor of M1 at Pep Boys.
For those with applications really needing an ultra low SAPS oil, this would be the way to buy it.
Nobody should be paying $12.00/qt for any flavor of M1.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Red Line, Amsoil and RP have their own loyal followings.
The VAG owner looking for cheap can use either Castrol or M1 oils with the appropriate approvals listed right on the label.
The average Amsoil, Red Line or RP buyer is sophisticated enough to know what he's buying and to be unconcerned with whether the blender paid VW four grand for its seal of apporval or not.
I doubt that there's anything wrong with products recommended by Amsoil, RP or Red Line.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
All three are noted for giving good personal advice over the phone, which can't be said of any major blender.
You can talk to your customers or you can rely upon the listed certifications to do the talking for you.
The larger blenders can't give much personal advice.
The smaller ones can and do.
Cheap? M1 5W30 ESP is almost $12, actually more expensive the RL Euro.
Your VAG turbos don't require M1 ESP.
M1 0W-40 meets the spec for both of your engines.
M1 0W-40 is ~$25.00/jug at Walmart, so it is pretty cheap.
M1 5W-30 ESP is pretty cheap as well, in that it goes on special three or four times a year along with every other flavor of M1 at Pep Boys.
For those with applications really needing an ultra low SAPS oil, this would be the way to buy it.
Nobody should be paying $12.00/qt for any flavor of M1.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Red Line, Amsoil and RP have their own loyal followings.
The VAG owner looking for cheap can use either Castrol or M1 oils with the appropriate approvals listed right on the label.
The average Amsoil, Red Line or RP buyer is sophisticated enough to know what he's buying and to be unconcerned with whether the blender paid VW four grand for its seal of apporval or not.
I doubt that there's anything wrong with products recommended by Amsoil, RP or Red Line.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
All three are noted for giving good personal advice over the phone, which can't be said of any major blender.
You can talk to your customers or you can rely upon the listed certifications to do the talking for you.
The larger blenders can't give much personal advice.
The smaller ones can and do.
Cheap? M1 5W30 ESP is almost $12, actually more expensive the RL Euro.
Your VAG turbos don't require M1 ESP.
M1 0W-40 meets the spec for both of your engines.
M1 0W-40 is ~$25.00/jug at Walmart, so it is pretty cheap.
M1 5W-30 ESP is pretty cheap as well, in that it goes on special three or four times a year along with every other flavor of M1 at Pep Boys.
For those with applications really needing an ultra low SAPS oil, this would be the way to buy it.
Nobody should be paying $12.00/qt for any flavor of M1.
I know very well what goes in VW.
This engine is designed around Low-SAPS oil. It is the US fuel that is reson why VW puts VW 502.00 in 2.0T, so that they can maintain 10K OCI.
Low-SAPS and 5K OCI are perfectly fine.
Low-SAPS is the only oil that goes in 2.0T in the EU.
Wal Mart carries $25, I know, I bought it last time there for my CC. Last time I bought 1 0W40. Of all oils I tried, by far the worst one!
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Red Line, Amsoil and RP have their own loyal followings.
The VAG owner looking for cheap can use either Castrol or M1 oils with the appropriate approvals listed right on the label.
The average Amsoil, Red Line or RP buyer is sophisticated enough to know what he's buying and to be unconcerned with whether the blender paid VW four grand for its seal of apporval or not.
I doubt that there's anything wrong with products recommended by Amsoil, RP or Red Line.
I think it's more a matter of their makers not feeling the need to spend money on a certification that will not likely add to their sales.
All three are noted for giving good personal advice over the phone, which can't be said of any major blender.
You can talk to your customers or you can rely upon the listed certifications to do the talking for you.
The larger blenders can't give much personal advice.
The smaller ones can and do.
Cheap? M1 5W30 ESP is almost $12, actually more expensive the RL Euro.
Your VAG turbos don't require M1 ESP.
M1 0W-40 meets the spec for both of your engines.
M1 0W-40 is ~$25.00/jug at Walmart, so it is pretty cheap.
M1 5W-30 ESP is pretty cheap as well, in that it goes on special three or four times a year along with every other flavor of M1 at Pep Boys.
For those with applications really needing an ultra low SAPS oil, this would be the way to buy it.
Nobody should be paying $12.00/qt for any flavor of M1.
I know very well what goes in VW.
This engine is designed around Low-SAPS oil. It is the US fuel that is reson why VW puts VW 502.00 in 2.0T, so that they can maintain 10K OCI.
Low-SAPS and 5K OCI are perfectly fine.
Low-SAPS is the only oil that goes in 2.0T in the EU.
Wal Mart carries $25, I know, I bought it last time there for my CC. Last time I bought 1 0W40. Of all oils I tried, by far the worst one!
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