This thread was hilarious and confusing. Is billit under the impression that tire manufacturers have the ability to make a tire with UHP level grip that doesnt do this in freezing temps, but are holding out cause they all love selling crap? Is he trolling? Has he ever gone around a corner at more than 35mph? Is his idea of an ultra high performance tire a set of Bfg Radial T/As? So many questions.
Tires on new Camaros cracking due to very cold weather
- Thread starter Dave Hess
- Start date
Someone did a link to the tire rack page for the goodyears, https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...p_Goodyear_Eagle+F1+Supercar+3R_Tire&code=yes
Definitely in the DOT r-comp range but they did give them actual UTQG ratings 100TW AA traction and A temperature. Some of my old DOT R-comps (V-710's, proxes RR) from autocross had 40TW and C wet traction, D temperature, and big warnings not to actually use these street legal tires on the street... In my brief trips to get lunch during an autocross, I found that you didn't want to run them on the street anyways, as they were so loud and harsh, while sometimes heating up enough to grip and pick up pebbles...
Just browsing around tirerack and it seems any summer high performance tire usually has the same temperature restrictions of -7C being the tire cracking temps, and some are pretty regular looking tires, like 5 rib all-seasons with no siping.
I just checked Tire Rack. Like I said, R71 category, Falken Azenis. A lot of people run those tires on track where I go. I mean, most, if not all, just use them to get to track and drive there, take them off after track event. Not sure why would GM deliver this tire as OE on such vehicle. I know on some supercars they put tires like that. But IMO, it is nonsense for daily driving.
No..... billt is of the opinion that it is stupid, along with a waste of money, to put expensive "street tires" on a car, that have absolutely no durability what so ever, and crack and fall apart at anything under 40 degrees..... When you live where it's less than 40 degrees.
And then have to take them off and store them inside, next to your fireplace. Or else they will self destruct while parked in your driveway. Much like they did on that transporter.
And even if you live where it's warm and dry, explain what good this "super enhanced grip level" is going to do for you, when everywhere you drive the thing has speed limits, stoplights, school zones, rush hour traffic, and crosswalks? And the absolute maximum speed limit you're ever going to find is only 75 MPH?
Especially when there are literally dozens of similar tires out there you can purchase, that will perform nearly as well, (or at least as well or better than the driving skill level is on this forum), and not have to deal with them cracking and falling apart, before the frost kills your Marigolds and tomato plants.
Like most people, (with the exception of the few idiots out there), I obey the speed limit and traffic laws when I drive. And these tires are going to do absolutely nothing for anyone who does the same, and drives one of these cars. Regardless of how much you think you're Castroneves every time you get into it.
Because you're never going to be able to legally extract the performance they are supposed to deliver, without violating enough traffic laws to get your ass landed in jail, your license revoked, and your "Super Camaro" towed to the nearest impound lot, and held for ransom.
So, the question then becomes, why pay for something that lacks any type of durability, and that you're never going to get the whole good out of, regardless of how you drive, or how good you think you can drive?
And if your going to race the thing fine, then simply put full racing tires on it and be done with it. Why deal with a product that isn't as good on a track, when put up against pure racing tires, which are designed and manufactured for that very purpose?
Trying to have the "best of both worlds" in this case is going to get you neither.... Unless you have some type of tire changing fetish.
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For once we agree. They do it simply because there are people out there they can sell them to, that proved P.T. Barnum right.
Magazines and websites test cars with the OE tyres. These tyres give the car a very distinct advantage, and ultimately helps sell cars.
I agree it's nonsense for daily driving, a tyre that needs warming up to get grip has no place on the road as the conditions could be that it doersn't get warm, or cools down again.
I was more thinking that they could go Michelin PS4S.
Still, doesn’t excuse anyone.
Any tire you put on this vehicle to properly transfer torque will need warm up. This ain’t vehicle for all seasons regardless what owners might do later.
I agree, tires like this are used as marketing, enhancing handling etc. but still not excuse for poor handling during transport or by owners.
Ok, they could go bit more forgiving tire, Michelin PS4S for example. But in the end of the day, except all season tires, any tire they put, will have issues in cold. The reason why no all seasons on cars like this is that regardless of how fast you drive, you still have to deal with huge torque, huge brakes that will easily overwhelm all seasons, handling set up that can be at limits at lower speeds too.
This car is not primary vehicle. Some people might use it like that but they have to be aware of compromises. It ain’t Camry. But in the end of the day, owners will have to read manual, and will have to inform themselves. And yes, there are stupid people and they will do stupid stuff buying Ling Long’s etc. on cars like this and think they are fastest kid on the block.
Again, I mostly agree with you. They may indeed have "issues with the cold", with a slightly lesser performing tire. But they won't have a tire that self destructs by simply sitting in their driveway on a chilly night.
As far as dealing with "huge torque and huge brakes", that can happen to any tire that is over driven on any car. Or that is driven beyond the skill level of the person driving it. It doesn't have to be a, "Super Camaro".
And none of it really matters on the street, because as I mentioned, they're not going to be able to push the car anywhere near those limits, without getting pulled over and heavily fined. So in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter..... If you can't drive with your foot to the floor, it won't matter if your tires can.
We see professional race drivers all the time, in all the venues up to and including Formula 1, several who have won many major races, over drive cold racing tires, and in the process wreck because of it. It happens to the best of them.
Idiots on the street with fast cars simply do it more often. And when they do these tires aren't going to make up for their lack of skill, or over saturation of stupidity.
It is really not that simple with cars like this.
1. Going PS4S would make things better, but in really cold climates if someone wants to drive this car in winter, snow tires are only option as RWD and torque just won’t allow any lesser tire to be useful. Yes, if it is second vehicle, they could just keep it in garage and call it a day.
2. Speed is not issue. Even at 40-50mph these brakes will overwhelm tires. This car has probably 6 pot Brembo in front and probably 4 or at least 2 pot Brembo in the back. It is track option car so you really, really want these brakes on the car if you track vehicle. But you also want tire that can transfer that braking power to the surface. Going all season tires would greatly compromise usefulness of those brakes. So what is the point then? And at 40-50mph emergency braking with this car and proper tires is much better then anything else.
3. It is marketing! People want stuff like this regardless does it make sense or not. GM won’t say: if you go on track get this, or that. GM is not Porsche or BMW. Those companies can do that bcs. their performance cars costs a lot of money and they can say to buyer: listen, you want this? Open wallet. GM is trying to get people that want high performance, but not at cost of 911. Of course, they don’t get 911, but they still get good, fast car. They want to hang out with cool kids, but they don’t want to shell out too much money. So, you market them track car, track tires, and yep, GM should know better how to transport it and owners should be mindful of compromises. In the end, we are all responsible for our cars. Some cars are called appliance for a reason, and some, like this Camaro, are not.
They did that because they have weight on them and are strapped down. If the tire is just sitting in the cold, this will not happen, unless someone purposefully flexes the tire. Some tires even have stickers on them to not mount them onto wheels in cold weather as you could crack them.
This setup is not a street car, I mean look at the friggin aero on the car. They also have an extremely stiff spool valve suspension. People buying these cars are buying them as track rats. Yes people will use them on the street but they are fair weather weekend cars, not daily drivers.
Would they crack if being delivered on a trailer that got stuck in -10F blizzard for 24 hours uninflated?
Would it harm them? Or, do they have to be inflated to do this?
These are 1LE cars. 1LE is a track package, a serious one. They really should go back to making AC delete mandatory for it - that would weed out the ones that want to daily drive a track car.
Pure and simple they are competiton tires for a competition car.
Anyone who wants to daily it should budget in a set of less committed tires.
Pure and simple they are competiton tires for a competition car.
Anyone who wants to daily it should budget in a set of less committed tires.
And even if you have to store them in nice cozy place, so be it. Track is 95% preparing car for it and 5% driving on it. This car allows you to spend more time thinking about track then preparing for track (still not a free pass). So, storing tires, whatever, I store mine for track that are just regular performance summers in nice cozy place.
M3 CSL was AC and Radio free. Was coming with slicks.
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And the PS4S still has the same temperature limitation that Bill is railing against, as do the optional OE Pirelli tires on my Jeep.
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That's why they are an option. They were an option on my Jeep, one I went with, already having a full set of winter tires available and mounted on rims. I also went with the optional upgraded brakes with 2-piece rotors.
No, they don't have long-term durability, no high performance tire does. The PSS's on my M5 wore faster than an all season, but had incredible traction in both the wet and dry. Like these tires, if you were to drive on them below their rated temperature, Michelin indicated that cracking would not be covered, just like with my current Pirelli tires, as I noted earlier in the thread.
You don't need to store them inside, you just can't flex them. Mine sit in my garage and fair just fine.
Clearly, you are not a driving enthusiast, and that's fine, but there are plenty of extremely windy back roads where you can get the tires nice and warm and really push the car without grossly exceeding the speed limit for the road. When I used to drive up to Rosseau regularly, the WIndermere road was one of these. There are many others.
Again, all ultra-high performance summer tires are at risk of cracking if used below 40F, as the information from both Pirelli and Michelin I shared indicates. And no, no all season approaches the performance level of something like the PSS or the current PS4S.
*snip of the material that's basically just a reiteration of the above*
Because with Joe Average's driving skill, it's quite unlikely that a dedicated R-compound tire with even shorter life is going to help on the track. Swapping out a set of PSS's or PS4S's every couple of years, and being able to drive to the track, do some lapping, drive home, and not have to deal with changing the tires and dealing with tires that last half as long again, has appeal.
