Tires on new Camaros cracking due to very cold weather

[RhondaHonda]

My Grand Sport had a note in the manual about not operating at near freezing due to tire damage. It’s a nice-weather car for me but if I chose to drive it more I’d get the all season Michelins for it. Good on the dealer for replacing them.

 

[krzyss]

This seems like a disaster waiting to happen. I can't help but wonder how many people in the south have ventured up north to visit family in temperate climates for Christmas. Only to have this happen to their tires while parked outside. It's not like people who live in warm climates are going to buy "Winter tires", if they happen to venture north of the Mason / Dixon line.

Do they buy winter clothes for visit up north?
Getting proper tires is similar.

Krzyś

 

[Quattro Pete]

Remember, we're talking about street cars and tires here.

Not really. These are not just any run-of-the-mill Camaros. These are top of the line models (ZL1 1LE) meant for competition.

This seems like a disaster waiting to happen. I can't help but wonder how many people in the south have ventured up north to visit family in temperate climates for Christmas. Only to have this happen to their tires while parked outside.

You don't just take these cars "up north to visit family." And if you do, you only have yourself to blame for your own stupidity.

 

[CapriRacer]

Calling @CapriRacer

I don't think I can add anything that hasn't already been said.

 

[billt460]

You don't just take these cars "up north to visit family." And if you do, you only have yourself to blame for your own stupidity.

Why? They're street cars, not race cars. If they can be licensed and insured, they should be safe to be driven on any road at any time.

Regardless, I find it almost unbelievable that the DOT would approve such a tire, that can destroy itself, by doing nothing but going through a temperature change, while sitting on a transporter.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Why? They're street cars, not race cars.

I would say they're more race cars than they are street cars.

If they can be licensed and insured, they should be safe to be driven on any road at any time.

Many roads up north can be treacherous during winter. They may require special winter tires with studs or chains to drive on. Yet, last time I checked, no car comes from the factory equipped with studs or chains. So, as equipped by the factory, NO car is safe to be be driven on those roads.

Just like it is your responsibility to wear proper shoes and clothing before going outside in the winter up north, it is also your responsibility to ensure your car is adequately equipped to drive up north. Why would a manufacturer of a high performance race-like car cripple it by installing all-season tires on it? If the owner wants to drive up north during winter, it is his or her responsibility to equip it with proper running gear. This is why we run two sets of tires here up north.

 

[billt460]

I would say they're more race cars than they are street cars.


Many roads up north can be treacherous during winter. They may require special winter tires with studs or chains to drive on. Yet, last time I checked, no car comes from the factory equipped with studs or chains. So, as equipped by the factory, NO car is safe to be be driven on those roads.

Just like it is your responsibility to wear proper shoes and clothing before going outside in the winter up north, it is also your responsibility to ensure your car is adequately equipped to drive up north. Why would a manufacturer of a high performance race-like car cripple it by installing all-season tires on it? If the owner wants to drive up north during winter, it is his or her responsibility to equip it with proper running gear. This is why we run two sets of tires here up north.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. But we're not talking about snow and ice here. And I'll stand by my statement, that it's rather ridiculous that the Department Of Transportation would approve a tire for street use on a licensed motor vehicle, that can destroy itself by nothing more than going through a change in temperature. For God's sake they make light bulbs that can tolerate worse than that.

 

[bullwinkle]

I didn’t realize GM made Camaros that were designed expressly for track use. I thought that was more the domain of Porsche, Lotus, etc. Hopefully the track never gets cold? Still amazed these have DOT certifications…

 

[OVERKILL]

Why? They're street cars, not race cars. If they can be licensed and insured, they should be safe to be driven on any road at any time.

Regardless, I find it almost unbelievable that the DOT would approve such a tire, that can destroy itself, by doing nothing but going through a temperature change, while sitting on a transporter.

The tire manufacturers, and I assume the owners manual in the car, provide documentation that states that these tires are NOT appropriate to be operated below a certain temperature.

When I ordered my SRT, I chose the dedicated summer tires, which are the Pirelli P Zero run flat, Pirelli explicitly states that they do not warrant the tires against cracking that can happen if the tire is operated in temperatures below 45F.

It's the owner's responsibility to be aware of this and plan accordingly. I run dedicated snows, on dedicated rims, it's not difficult.

 

[Rand]

IIRC the cracking has to do with the glass transition temperatures of the polymers/rubber used in street legal race tires and most max performance summer tires.

There are "summer" tires that dont do this and would operate fine on a DRY road in winter.

 

[billt460]

The tire manufacturers, and I assume the owners manual in the car, provide documentation that states that these tires are NOT appropriate to be operated below a certain temperature.

I'm sure they do. But being "not appropriate" is one thing. Cracking and self destructing without moving one inch is quite another.

 

[OVERKILL]

I'm sure they do. But being "not appropriate" is one thing. Cracking and self destructing without moving one inch is quite another.

It states this in the documentation, as I said, here's the link to the tires on TireRack, these are the optional OE tires for my vehicle:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=P+Zero+Run+Flat&partnum=945YR0P0RFTV3&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Jeep&autoYear=2020&autoModel=Grand%20Cherokee%204X4&autoModClar=SRT

Pirelli's warranty does not cover tires that develop compound cracking due to use in ambient temperatures below 45° Fahrenheit (7° Celsius), so the P Zero Run Flat, like all summer tires, is not intended to be driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.

Michelin makes a similar statement:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+4S&frontTire=44YR8PS4SXL&rearTire=735YR8PS4SXL&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=BMW&autoYear=2001&autoModel=M5&autoModClar=

Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced.

 

[krzyss]

I'm sure they do. But being "not appropriate" is one thing. Cracking and self destructing without moving one inch is quite another.

But I bet they moved. Up and down.
Maybe if they were inflated to max cold pressure it could have been avoided but maybe not.

Krzys

 

[Nick1994]

The tire manufacturers, and I assume the owners manual in the car, provide documentation that states that these tires are NOT appropriate to be operated below a certain temperature.

When I ordered my SRT, I chose the dedicated summer tires, which are the Pirelli P Zero run flat, Pirelli explicitly states that they do not warrant the tires against cracking that can happen if the tire is operated in temperatures below 45F.

It's the owner's responsibility to be aware of this and plan accordingly. I run dedicated snows, on dedicated rims, it's not difficult.

Where do you store your summer tires?

 

[OVERKILL]

Where do you store your summer tires?

In my garage. The concern is operating (flexing) the tires. They are OK if they are just stored.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

That damage is not covered by any warranty the tire could have, it there is one at all. This cracking only happens due to improper use.

Below 20F is the glass transition, when they become even more dangerous to drive on.

Be they "Summer" or "All Season", or whatever they tag them with, it seems ridiculous that they fall apart at the first sign of a cold snap. How can any of this be gauged as an, "improvement"? Remember, we're talking about street cars and tires here.

Not 1 lap qualifying at Daytona, as opposed to running 40 laps during a race.... Or running "wets" on a F1 car on a dry track.

Call me crazy, but I'm not seeing how tires that crack and fall apart on a transporter, that passes through cold weather, are anything but a disaster. Where is this huge reward, as opposed to the risk of even screwing with these things?

Summer tires are designed for very hot temperatures and should not be driven below 40F

Just like winter tires can't handle temperatures over 50F, and sometimes even lower. Run VikingContacts or Blizzaks in 75 degree weather and they will crumble into rubber balls easily

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. But we're not talking about snow and ice here. And I'll stand by my statement, that it's rather ridiculous that the Department Of Transportation would approve a tire for street use on a licensed motor vehicle, that can destroy itself by nothing more than going through a change in temperature. For God's sake they make light bulbs that can tolerate worse than that.

Should winter tires be illegal, too?

Winter tires can't take the heat and can also degrade at high temps.

 

[ctechbob]

In my garage. The concern is operating (flexing) the tires. They are OK if they are just stored.

Yep, I've stored plenty of R-Comp tires in a cold garage, bagged and sitting on their sides, they'll survive just fine until track season cranks back up.

I did drive Falken Azenis 615's in cold weather. That's about the closest thing (at the time, we're talking 10+ years ago) to a streetable R-Comp. They were a little slick for the first few miles, but if you were careful you could just get enough heat in them to make them work.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yep, I've stored plenty of R-Comp tires in a cold garage, bagged and sitting on their sides, they'll survive just fine until track season cranks back up.

I did drive Falken Azenis 615's in cold weather. That's about the closest thing (at the time, we're talking 10+ years ago) to a streetable R-Comp. They were a little slick for the first few miles, but if you were careful you could just get enough heat in them to make them work.

I drove my Pilot Super Sport tires on my M5 when it was 0C, the weather suddenly changed and I hadn't parked the car yet. That was...scary. Surprisingly, they didn't crack though.

 

[Pew]

I drove my Pilot Super Sport tires on my M5 when it was 0C, the weather suddenly changed and I hadn't parked the car yet. That was...scary. Surprisingly, they didn't crack though.

Same as my friend's M235i on an on-ramp. Traction control saved us lol.

 

[billt460]

Summer tires are designed for very hot temperatures and should not be driven below 40F...... Just like winter tires can't handle temperatures over 50F.......

So, in the Spring and Fall out here, when the temperature can fluctuate anywhere from the high 30's in the early hours, to the 70's during the afternoon, I can either "follow the documentation", and change my tires daily, or else stay home until it warms up for good. Sound plausible.

(This is the part where someone comes back, and tells me I need to buy, "all season tires"). Then I have to live with the fact it's going to take me an extra 25 seconds to get to Wal-Mart in my Super Camaro, due to all the lost traction and poor handling. Decisions, decisions.