Bought a new 2004 4runner and the new Toyota V-8 with 5 speed automatic transmission doesn't have a dipstick to even check the transmission fluid. The maintenance schle. does not even indicate the need for servicing the transmission unless you tow and then it only needs to be serviced every 60K miles. The coolant is good for 100K miles. Basically oil and assorted filters and brakepads for the 1st 90K miles. I know Mercedes has gone to a no drain plug oil pan and they now suck the oil out of the dipstick. What do you guys make of these changing times????
This will drive you maintenance guys nuts
- Thread starter Pitbull
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Oh man, I am sorry to hear that Toyota has gone this way too. A friend has a 2000 Isuzu Amigo 3.2 V6 that doesn't have a transmission dipstick either. It started to shift funny after 36000 miles. Turned out the transmission fluid was fried. Would have been nice to just pull out the dipstick to catch it early.
I also heard that the new Type IV Toytoa transmission fluid is actually a synthetic, but not sure on this. If you plan on keeping this 4Runner for a long time, I would still have it changed every 25000 miles with a transmission fluid exchange machine. Its the only way to do it with this set-up. Toyota dealers usually charge around $120 for this service.
I have seen that vacuum machine on Griots website ( http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?L1=L1_2000&L2=L2_2050&SKU=10186 )
that you can suck the oil out of the dipstick with. All the reviews I read say it work excellent and no oil is left inside.
I also heard that the new Type IV Toytoa transmission fluid is actually a synthetic, but not sure on this. If you plan on keeping this 4Runner for a long time, I would still have it changed every 25000 miles with a transmission fluid exchange machine. Its the only way to do it with this set-up. Toyota dealers usually charge around $120 for this service.
I have seen that vacuum machine on Griots website ( http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?L1=L1_2000&L2=L2_2050&SKU=10186 )
that you can suck the oil out of the dipstick with. All the reviews I read say it work excellent and no oil is left inside.
PitBull, I wouldn't abide by those service intervals if you really like your vehicle.
If you hang around Toyota forums long enough, especially ones which are primarily for Toy 4x4s, you'll run across people who've figured out a way to service this beast.
--- Bror Jace
If you hang around Toyota forums long enough, especially ones which are primarily for Toy 4x4s, you'll run across people who've figured out a way to service this beast.
--- Bror Jace
I agree I think it is synthetic ATF and I will exchange it at 45K miles since I will only use this vehicle on road and no towing. I will let Toyota do the exchange since it will still be under the Toyota warranty and I want the record that it was done with the correct fluid. Toyota recommends doing it at 60K if you tow
Must be some good fluid
Kestas
Staff member
It sounds like Toyota is one step closer to the no-maintenance (except motor oil), disposable car.
My wife has a 2002 Explorer and it does not have a tranny dip stick either. As a matter of fact they don't even specify a tranny service in the maintenance schedule and it only has Motorcraft Mercon V in it
! To even check the fluid level you have to go through a proceedure that entails hooking it up to a computer and obtaining a specific temperature etc, etc, etc
. They are kind of "encouraging" you to go to the dealer unless another independent shop has the equipment necessary to check it properly. Need less to say It's cheap insurance to have the dealer do a fluid exchange every 30,000 miles for $110 rather than pay for a new tranny at 70,000 miles
. Of course you still have to inspect the underside of the truck to make sure you are not loosing ATF, since there is no dip stick. They think they are making vehicles "idiot" proof. Personally I think the "idiots" are making the vehicles. We truely are seeing "disposable" vehicles. Unfortunately they cost $30,000++++
. That's a lot of money to spend every 3 to 5 years.
Whimsey
Whimsey
Kestas
Staff member
Perhaps this feature is a response from design engineers who want to keep dirt out of the transmission (reference the thread on wiping dipsticks). Of course it doesn't hurt the manufacturer to also save on dipsticks and tubes, and boost the number of service visits at the dealer.
I can imagine what goes on in the meetings when the manufacturer hashes these ideas out.
I can imagine what goes on in the meetings when the manufacturer hashes these ideas out.
There's got to be a way to check the fluid level. Both our 98 and 95 Volvo's (Aisen-Warner trans) have no 'traditional' dipstick. And Volvo called the fluid 'permanent, needing no change.
We all know this is absolute "baloney". Physics is physics and you can't change that. There are laws you know.
On the Volvo's, there was a very short dipstick tube coming out of the trans. You had to either reach waaaaay down or use a 1/2 inch socket extension to insert into the yellow plastic cap, twist it 90 degrees and pull out this short 8" plastic dipstick.
Look around underneath, you might just find one. I understand that Toyota/Lexus use the Aisen-Warner trans. on some models as well.
DEWFPO
We all know this is absolute "baloney". Physics is physics and you can't change that. There are laws you know.
On the Volvo's, there was a very short dipstick tube coming out of the trans. You had to either reach waaaaay down or use a 1/2 inch socket extension to insert into the yellow plastic cap, twist it 90 degrees and pull out this short 8" plastic dipstick.
Look around underneath, you might just find one. I understand that Toyota/Lexus use the Aisen-Warner trans. on some models as well.
DEWFPO
These transmissions still have the cooler lines that run to the radiator. Same way as any other for fluid exchange.
On my friends Amigo, there is a plug that you remove that is higher up than the drainpan. This plug/opening is how you add fluid to the system, using some sort of a pump, because there is absolutley no way to pour it in. When the fluid starts to overflow from this opening, it is considered full.
On my friends Amigo, there is a plug that you remove that is higher up than the drainpan. This plug/opening is how you add fluid to the system, using some sort of a pump, because there is absolutley no way to pour it in. When the fluid starts to overflow from this opening, it is considered full.
My '02 Cavalier 5 speed doesn't have a dipstick either like the old ones had. But there still is a fill-level plug and a drain plug. I have already changed the "lifetime" fluid from the "sealed unit" transmission and I saw some gold colored glittery stuff in it (but not much). I figure this is from the break in and I replaced the fluid with Amsoil synthetic. If you're gonna neglect the maintenance, at least do a change shortly after break in.
thats soo weird...
if u cant see how much is in it how are you supposed to fill it?
hehe dealers want more money and want you to go to them so that they can fix it for you, with a price probably.
if u cant see how much is in it how are you supposed to fill it?
hehe dealers want more money and want you to go to them so that they can fix it for you, with a price probably.
Sons 97 Isuzu Rodeo has no dipstick, drain and fill plugs and as noted above, the fill plug is vertical, had to bend some tubing to be able to add fluid. To check the fluid you need to heat the fluid by driving it then with engine running get under it and pull the fill plug, add fluid until it comes out, Not easy or pretty. Changed it a few times (drain and fill) using synthetic ATF.
My 2003 V-6 Camry does have a trans dipstick, and it is a Type-IV fluid car. It's a year old and has 32,000 miles on it. I drive in a hot climate (gulf coast area). A few months ago, I started to notice a light shudder sometimes when the car made the 4-5 upshift (it is a "2003.5" with a 5-spd auto vs. the older 4-spd). The fluid was slightly discolored (darkened, but still plainly red) and smelled fine (no burn odor). I had the trans flushed and fully refilled with new Type-IV, and presto, shuddder gone. From this I've concluded that synthetic or not, the Type-IV is only good for about 30k, at least in a hot climate.
So, does anyone know for sure, is the Type-IV a synthetic or not? I had a dealer tech tell me it was, but otherwise, I have no info to verify.
So, does anyone know for sure, is the Type-IV a synthetic or not? I had a dealer tech tell me it was, but otherwise, I have no info to verify.
I know a guy who is a consultant to the transmission industry. He states that the only reason transmission fluid would ever need to be replaced is because of overheating, it does not wearout. Toyota recommends the fluid be changed at 60K miles if you tow, (meaning possible overheating). The only reason I would change the fluid at 45K miles and (I would want to do an exchange) is that I have a 60K mile warranty and would want to observe the result of the exchange while under warranty, incase of failure. Also I plan on trading at around 90K miles before the expensive timing belt service so I figure 45K would be an ideal time to change fluid.
I've got a cousin who's a long-time Toyota dealership guy, and he indicates that it's well known that Camry platform vehicles with V-6s have a rep for running hot transmissions and cooking their fluid. A couple years ago, a good friend of mine (a smart guy, but he doesn' know the first thing about cars) bought a used ES-300 with, coincidentally, about 60k on its clock, with no prior inspection. I pulled both dipsticks for him. The oil was bad enough, but the the AFT was worse! It was very dark, and cloudy, with no redness left at all. Worse yet, it had tiny, but visible, metal particles sparkling out from the blackness of the fluid. The car had no hitch, but that could easily have been removed. So who knows how it got that way.
In my case, Toyota can say what they will, but at 32k, my fluid was starting to go, both by visual evidence and by the beginning of trans misbehavior, cured by the refill with new fluid. Regardless of what's going on inside, I don't mind paying $125 for the peace of mind of knowing that I now have fluid that's beyond question.
I don't pretend to have full understanding of what's up with later model cars and the maker's seeming wish that we leave ATF in forever. I am, however, deeply suspicious of the claims of eternal life for a fluid that undergoes high heat stress every day.
[ April 07, 2004, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
In my case, Toyota can say what they will, but at 32k, my fluid was starting to go, both by visual evidence and by the beginning of trans misbehavior, cured by the refill with new fluid. Regardless of what's going on inside, I don't mind paying $125 for the peace of mind of knowing that I now have fluid that's beyond question.
I don't pretend to have full understanding of what's up with later model cars and the maker's seeming wish that we leave ATF in forever. I am, however, deeply suspicious of the claims of eternal life for a fluid that undergoes high heat stress every day.
[ April 07, 2004, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
As far as I'm concerned, a lifetime fluid is only valid if the vehicle has a lifetime warranty.
Manual transmissions rarely have dipsticks and it is easy enough to drain/refill/topoff its fluids.
Only referencing the factory service manual will allow you to learn Toyota's method of topping off(probably an impossible to get at cold fill plug).
Makes you wonder if the maintenance program that automakers are using are for 2 reasons:
1. reduce the cost of ownership(one german automaker wasn't shy about this)
2. make the vehicle last the warrany period and not a day later(more vehicle sales)
Manual transmissions rarely have dipsticks and it is easy enough to drain/refill/topoff its fluids.
Only referencing the factory service manual will allow you to learn Toyota's method of topping off(probably an impossible to get at cold fill plug).
Makes you wonder if the maintenance program that automakers are using are for 2 reasons:
1. reduce the cost of ownership(one german automaker wasn't shy about this)
2. make the vehicle last the warrany period and not a day later(more vehicle sales)
I don't think any manufacture would have a maintance routine for any of their vehicles that would only provide reliablity for the life of the warranty. Toyota would never do this. I suspect that if you follow Toyota's recommendation for maintance you should get at least 200K miles of trouble free use out of your Toyota. Dependablity ratings are way more important to Toyota (then the cost to a customer after they purchased their car) for an additional transmission flush or fluid change in the diff's and transfer case. Saying other wise is just not logical. Personally I will follow the maintenance recommendation based on severe useage even though I won't be using my vehicle in that way.
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