This is where it starts to get interesting

[Vercingetorix]

I have seen the Porsche 919 and F1 hybrid cars race. The 919 was by far the most impressive thing I have ever seen. Hoping this car does something equally impressive. And to all you EV pushers, hybrid systems will last 24 hours under full race conditions and have done so multiple times. No one lap wonders like Tesla.

Porsche 911 hybrid: electrified Turbo snapped testing — CAR

The 911 is finally going hybrid

apple.news

 

[skyactiv]

Do you plan on buying one?

 

[Vercingetorix]

Do you plan on buying one?

Last I heard the wait list list For even a normal 911 is years if special ordered.

 

[DwightFrye]

Hybrid vehicles are a temporary solution. Performance not withstanding, they are adding ICE components, weight and cost to an EV vehicle and adding EV components, weight and cost to an ICE vehicle. Too many compromises. Neither fish nor fowl. In a couple more years of EV development, hybrid vehicles will be a thing of the past.

 

[Vercingetorix]

It would seem both Porsche and Ferrari disagree with you.

 

[Job]

Hybrids have small batteries that are used rapidly, then the engine recharges them as needed. Not understanding why a hybrid would be better for longer racing. The recharging takes engine power and efficiency is lost. So the engine power is in excess and not needed in full for racing, so the extra power can be used to recharge the battery? In normal hybrid road cars if the battery is fully depleted like going up long grades, the car slows down dramatically due to not enough power.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Hybrids have small batteries that are used rapidly, then the engine recharges them as needed. Not understanding why a hybrid would be better for longer racing. The recharging takes engine power and efficiency is lost. So the engine power is in excess and not needed in full for racing, so the extra power can be used to recharge the battery? In normal hybrid road cars if the battery is fully depleted like going up long grades, the car slows down dramatically due to not enough power.

Porsche 919 (9R9-2014)

It is perhaps the most interesting and at the same time the most mysterious one of the new 2014 Le Mans Prototypes. Technical analysis of the new Porsche 919 Hybrid

www.racecar-engineering.com

The most interesting thing for me is that on a straightaway they dump all their battery as quickly as possible. This gets them to top speed as soon as possible which means they spend the maximum amount of time at top speed and the distance is covered quicker.

 

[PandaBear]

Hybrid vehicles are a temporary solution. Performance not withstanding, they are adding ICE components, weight and cost to an EV vehicle and adding EV components, weight and cost to an ICE vehicle. Too many compromises. Neither fish nor fowl. In a couple more years of EV development, hybrid vehicles will be a thing of the past.

Disagree. Hybrid is actually going to be the norm for most non EV in the future. There are many application of gasoline fueled vehicles and hybrid done right can easily shave 1/4 to 1/3 of the fuel consumption away. The biggest being regenerative braking and right sizing engine for constant load, and let battery / electric motor handle the acceleration.

 

[PandaBear]

Hybrids have small batteries that are used rapidly, then the engine recharges them as needed. Not understanding why a hybrid would be better for longer racing. The recharging takes engine power and efficiency is lost. So the engine power is in excess and not needed in full for racing, so the extra power can be used to recharge the battery? In normal hybrid road cars if the battery is fully depleted like going up long grades, the car slows down dramatically due to not enough power.

Braking recharges the battery, not engine power during acceleration. The charged battery / capacitor / flywheel will then power the acceleration back out of a corner. Now if you are doing Nascar in circle with no deceleration or braking, constant speed, then yeah hybrid won't help.

Long incline and decline aren't the best for hybrid, but for flatland driving hybrid is great over long distance.

Many hybrids in racing are flywheel based (KERS), fast transfer of energy with little efficiency loss, but won't hold the power for hours and days like battery.

 

[E365]

Hybrid vehicles are a temporary solution. Performance not withstanding, they are adding ICE components, weight and cost to an EV vehicle and adding EV components, weight and cost to an ICE vehicle. Too many compromises. Neither fish nor fowl. In a couple more years of EV development, hybrid vehicles will be a thing of the past.

I agree. I was just looking at the Porsche Panamera Turbo S e-Hybrid Executive. A wholly unimpressive drivetrain.

The Panamera is 5,412 lbs vs 4,833 for a Model S Plaid. 579 lbs heavier. Insane.

And the Plaid has almost twice the cargo volume, is MASSIVELY faster and more powerful than the Panamera, and uses less than half the energy of the Panamera.

I’d guess Hybrids will largely be gone by the end of the decade. Probably good for some segments, like large trucks, past that.

 

[Vercingetorix]

In case nobody wants to read the article Porsche also used the exhaust to power an alternator. I believe this only took effect after the wastegate opened so it was essentially claiming free energy to power the battery while accelerating.

 

[Vercingetorix]

I agree. I was just looking at the Porsche Panamera Turbo S e-Hybrid Executive. A wholly unimpressive drivetrain.

The Panamera is 5,412 lbs vs 4,833 for a Model S Plaid. 579 lbs heavier. Insane.

And the Plaid has almost twice the cargo volume, is MASSIVELY faster and more powerful than the Panamera, and uses less than half the energy of the Panamera.

I’d guess Hybrids will largely be gone by the end of the decade. Probably good for some segments, like large trucks, past that.

What is insane is that it takes the Plaid 15 minutes to condition the batteries to do it’s acceleration runs.

 

[E365]

What is insane is that it takes the Plaid 15 minutes to condition the batteries to do it’s acceleration runs.

Only if you want that last .2 sec in the quarter mile. It’ll still destroy a Taycan with 15% battery left, in economy mode and no battery conditioning.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Only if you want that last .2 sec in the quarter mile. It’ll still destroy a Taycan with 15% battery left, in economy mode and no battery conditioning.

Not in a race from say Stuttgart to Spa and back.

 

[JeffKeryk]

There is plenty of room in the world for all kinds of cars. It's your money, buy what floats your boat.

 

[Job]

Braking recharges the battery, not engine power during acceleration. The charged battery / capacitor / flywheel will then power the acceleration back out of a corner. Now if you are doing Nascar in circle with no deceleration or braking, constant speed, then yeah hybrid won't help.

Long incline and decline aren't the best for hybrid, but for flatland driving hybrid is great over long distance.

Many hybrids in racing are flywheel based (KERS), fast transfer of energy with little efficiency loss, but won't hold the power for hours and days like battery.

Hybrid gas engines charge the battery, in addition to regen. Actually the engine does all the charging as it is the only energy source. The battery is never charged from the wall. It would be a useless hybrid if it only depended on regen. Plug in hybrids are a different depending on the model. I’ve owned and driven both kinds enough to know.

 

[Cujet]

Hybrids are not the thing for a NASCAR race. won’t help over 500 miles. It’s kind of like saying hybrid aircraft will work. Constant power requirements make hybrids silly.

 

[PandaBear]

Hybrid gas engines charge the battery, in addition to regen. Actually the engine does all the charging as it is the only energy source. The battery is never charged from the wall. It would be a useless hybrid if it only depended on regen. Plug in hybrids are a different depending on the model. I’ve owned and driven both kinds enough to know.

Hybrid use the battery as a storage device, it is not a generator for external electricity usage. It store energy from surplus and it release it as needed. This is the fundamental. Hybrid don't "intentionally" charge the battery with gasoline engine then release it later to accelerate the car. If you argue that "regen is engine powered because your car is engine powered" that I don't know what to say, it isn't a good argument if you want to come to a conclusion that "therefore hybrid is a waste because we might as well use gasoline engine only".

Having say that, they "keep" the battery at a steady state of charge, between 20-80%, so that if you need acceleration and it is more efficient to accelerate from battery / electric motor then it would be using that, and if you are braking gently it would regen instead of wasting all those energy to heat up the brake. When your engine is just wasting energy to plumbing loss the "would be waste energy" is used to charge the battery.

Still, engine don't charge the battery when the car is under acceleration, as I mentioned earlier.

Since you have owned and driven hybrids you know that already. You also know that people don't build a hybrid with big engine just to use 30hp out of 200hp to drive on the highway at speed limit. You therefore know that they downsize the engine so they they use 30hp out of 80hp to drive on the highway, and therefore you know that it would be more efficient than a gasoline only 200hp engine, and therefore you know that they are going to be a long term solution even when EV is common place, because there will also applications that needs gasoline but can improve the gasoline engine only efficiency. (your original point that hybrid would be obsolete).

Now, since you downsized the engine from 200hp to 80hp with hybrid, you would obviously need to keep the battery somewhat charged so that it would "feel" more powerful than the 80hp it now is. This "80hp engine charging battery" is still going to be more efficient than using a 200hp gasoline engine to power the wheel alone, I'm sure you already know that.

 

[Job]

Hybrid use the battery as a storage device, it is not a generator for external electricity usage. It store energy from surplus and it release it as needed. This is the fundamental. Hybrid don't "intentionally" charge the battery with gasoline engine then release it later to accelerate the car. If you argue that "regen is engine powered because your car is engine powered" that I don't know what to say, it isn't a good argument if you want to come to a conclusion that "therefore hybrid is a waste because we might as well use gasoline engine only".

Having say that, they "keep" the battery at a steady state of charge, between 20-80%, so that if you need acceleration and it is more efficient to accelerate from battery / electric motor then it would be using that, and if you are braking gently it would regen instead of wasting all those energy to heat up the brake. When your engine is just wasting energy to plumbing loss the "would be waste energy" is used to charge the battery.

Still, engine don't charge the battery when the car is under acceleration, as I mentioned earlier.

Since you have owned and driven hybrids you know that already. You also know that people don't build a hybrid with big engine just to use 30hp out of 200hp to drive on the highway at speed limit. You therefore know that they downsize the engine so they they use 30hp out of 80hp to drive on the highway, and therefore you know that it would be more efficient than a gasoline only 200hp engine, and therefore you know that they are going to be a long term solution even when EV is common place, because there will also applications that needs gasoline but can improve the gasoline engine only efficiency. (your original point that hybrid would be obsolete).

Now, since you downsized the engine from 200hp to 80hp with hybrid, you would obviously need to keep the battery somewhat charged so that it would "feel" more powerful than the 80hp it now is. This "80hp engine charging battery" is still going to be more efficient than using a 200hp gasoline engine to power the wheel alone, I'm sure you already know that.

All the electric power in a hybrid comes from the gas engine, even regen. Regen is why a hybrid gets better mpg, or one reason. You said that, non hybrids lose heat through braking. Some hybrids do charge on acceleration if they are called to do so, there are different kinds. The Volt had a hold mode and the Prime has a charging mode. Hold mode kept the battery up to a certain level. The hybrids are too complicated for me to understand all the reasons they are more efficient in all the different driving conditions. They spent a lot of time perfecting them all these years. I said they would be useless if only regen was the way to recharge the battery.

 

[TumblrDucks]

Hybrid vehicles are a temporary solution. Performance not withstanding, they are adding ICE components, weight and cost to an EV vehicle and adding EV components, weight and cost to an ICE vehicle. Too many compromises. Neither fish nor fowl. In a couple more years of EV development, hybrid vehicles will be a thing of the past.

Or a perfect solution by combining low speed torque/fuel economy advantage of EV with long range and high speed fuel economy advantage of ICE : ) Plus no wait time at charge station.