Thin vs. thick: cold-engine protection

[Gokhan]

Am I the only one here who dreads the most engine wear when the engine is cold? I am especially paranoid about getting on the freeway with a cold engine. Cold engine seems to be an afterthought for most people here when choosing the oil viscosity. I am at no such ease.

I understand that if you are driving really fast and hard, a thicker oil could benefit you. However, for the rest of us, why not worry about the cold engine instead, where the worst wear supposedly happens? I feel a lot safer with the thinnest oil that works when my engine is cold. You can see from my signature line that my factory fill is 0W-16, and I am proud of that. Prius Prime is a car that literally gets over 100 mpg end-to-end on gasoline only in crawling freeway traffic, which beats motorcycles in fuel economy. It is obviously not meant for being driven fast, and 0W-16 perfectly suits it. I was very careful in breaking in the internal-combustion engine, and I am confident that 0W-16 is keeping it as good as just broken in thanks to its better cold-engine protection.

Your thoughts.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Only thing you can do beyond running a 0W-xx oil is to heat it before doing a cold start. Might look strange plugging in an electric oil pan heater when it's 70F outside, lol.

My philosophy is to try and keep the RPM low until the oil warms up. If cold start-up wear was so great, seems like engines using way heavier oil than 0W-xx wouldn't last multiple 100s of thousand miles.

I'd like to see a half way modern SAE type study that shows start-up/warm-up wear rates vs oil viscosity and cold start-up temperstures.

 

[demarpaint]

Millions of cars drive a few minutes every morning get to freeway and drive. Many of those engines live very long lives and travel rack up high miles w/o issue. IMO if you get up to highway speed without nailing it before getting to operating temperature, the highway run is the best way to get the oil to operating temperature with very little wear. Most vehicles cruise along the highway at 1,500-2,500 rpms, give or take. I have a hard time believing that poses a problem a few minutes after starting an engine.

 

[Lapham3]

I spend most of my time in an area where annual temps run from -20 to +90. I've always been able to drive for a bit on low speed surface streets a bit before needing to load the engine much. In winter, block heaters make the engine think that it's warm summer day. I use 5-30 and 10-30 synthetics and have had no engine related issues even as I run my vehicles for years and most for plenty of miles.

 

[buster]

It is interesting how many oil companies emphasize that "75%" of engine wear occurs within the first 20 minutes. Knowing what we know about oil, that does make sense. I always take it easy until the vehicle is up to operating temp before going above 3k rpms.

Magnatec is an oil that targets this pre-warm state. While all oils have that ability, Magnatec's chemistry is active before heat kicks in which helps activate ZDP.

I don't think over-babying an engine though or lugging it is ideal either. Getting the engine warm as fast as possible within reason is how I look at it.

 

[wpod]

Sure. What ever we think it takes.

 

[Zaedock]

There are millions of people who don't give a crap about their engines and they motor on every day.

What percentage of start up wear occurs from the lubricant vs just being a cold engine? If the lube can be pumped, it's doing most of it's job before optimal temp.

Years ago, an old member (BuickGN) and I had tested cold flow when discussing thicker oils. It wasn't scientific, just for fun really.
I had Delo SAE30 in my Jeep's sump and pulled the valve cover off and started her up at around 25-27*F (not too cold, but most SAE30's are recommended above 50*F). IIRC, BuickGN had 20W50 and started under similar temps. Long story short, I had instant flow from the push rods. The rockers filled up quick and the oil did it's job.

Today's oils are the best they've ever been, IMO. I worry more about nails in my tire or the dummy on their phone hitting me.

 

[OilUzer]

I lived in Idaho (i.e. very cold winters) for many years and used to use dino 10W-40 all season.
sold that car when it had 400K+ miles and the engine was in very good shape.
rain water was coming inside the cabin if I parked downhill. Couldn't figure out where it's coming in. Wasn't a huge problem until I moved to WA (i.e. rain).

 

[Drew7a]

Never worried about it either. I too live in -10F to 90F weather area. In the winter I start the car up and within 10 seconds I am on the road. Turn out of my driveway onto a 55MPH road for a minimum 15 mile ride. I lean toward the thick side of the spectrum but always keep a 0w or 5w for a winter rating. I run all my cars to 200K to 300K. The salt cancer gets them before any major engine failure. Once body rust starts they are gone from my fleet.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I don't think it's about cold thick oil, I think it's about the engine internals haven't being expended to proper spec due to being cold (as heat expands and cold contracts).

 

[aquariuscsm]

There are millions of people who don't give a crap about their engines and they motor on every day.

What percentage of start up wear occurs from the lubricant vs just being a cold engine? If the lube can be pumped, it's doing most of it's job before optimal temp.

Years ago, an old member (BuickGN) and I had tested cold flow when discussing thicker oils. It wasn't scientific, just for fun really.
I had Delo SAE30 in my Jeep's sump and pulled the valve cover off and started her up at around 25-27*F (not too cold, but most SAE30's are recommended above 50*F). IIRC, BuickGN had 20W50 and started under similar temps. Long story short, I had instant flow from the push rods. The rockers filled up quick and the oil did it's job.

Today's oils are the best they've ever been, IMO. I worry more about nails in my tire or the dummy on their phone hitting me.

Yep I remember this test well

 

[kschachn]

Oh look, it's yet another "thin vs. thick" thread, complete with "most wear occurs at startup" and the usual side discussion/circling about the winter rating.

Ya done good. I especially like how you are "proud" of the factory fill.

 

[BMW Dom]

Oh look, it's yet another "thin vs. thick" thread, complete with "most wear occurs at startup" and the usual side discussion/circling about the winter rating.

Ya done good. I especially like how you are "proud" of the factory fill.

Another 20 page oil thread, where we accomplish nothing

 

[kschachn]

Another 20 page oil thread, where we accomplish nothing

Emphasis on "another".

 

[DriveHard]

I still don't understand this debate...to me it is just worthless...

You have a positive displacement oil pump, whose pumping capability is directly coupled to engine speed. If the pump is not drawing a vacuum, it is delivering the same amount of oil, no matter the viscosity. The only way it could not be, would be if the relief function was active, and oil was going over relief instead of its normal path.

Are you wasting energy...yes. Is there a delay for bearings seeing oil pressure and getting crucial lubrication, I just don't see how it is possible.

 

[wpod]

I don't think it's about cold thick oil, I think it's about the engine internals haven't being expended to proper spec due to being cold (as heat expands and cold contracts).

Most don't take the metal expansion The pistons aren't round in the bore , richer air fuel mixture when cold and the condensation etc. We pretty much think what marketing tells us to think.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Am I the only one here who dreads the most engine wear when the engine is cold? I am especially paranoid about getting on the freeway with a cold engine.

I am confident that 0W-16 is keeping it as good as just broken in thanks to its better cold-engine protection.

Your thoughts.

Proud of 0w16 FF. That is a new one ! Bumper sticker required!

Now that I think of, it I am proud of the 5W20 in my Ford Duratec 2.0.
Alternatively, I will say I am "happy" that that is the oil spec.
It does a great job! and there is no worrying about the oil being "too thick or too thin" to keep a 165 hp 122 cu-in engine running.
That is LOT of HP for a n.a. smogger. Pretty much a Race tune for your formula FORD .

I think your issue is you are likely running on battery, the engine is NOT warming up and then you have to get on the freeway.
The ONLY thing you can do is get a block heater to get the block heads and pistons warm so there will not be a shock going from no power to full power. That IS an engine killer and toyota has seen excessive wear due to this.

Get a block heater, run it on a timer for say 2 hours before you leave - and Enjoy your car !
- Ken

 

[Duffyjr]

What I don't understand is you guys condemning this thread, I mean come on it says "thin vs thick" right in the title so why not just move on to the next post if you've seen enough of them.

Personally I don't worry about it is much as I used to, even my 08 Lucerne warms up faster than any other vehicle I've owned.

 

[JavierH19]

How cold are we talking. Like negative 20f? Because if it's around 25f I'd just use a 5w-30 and if it got below 0f I'd switch to 0w-20. If it got below -30f I'd switch to 0w-16 if I didn't get an engine block heater on my truck, and keep in mind I run 40 grade but if it got to 30f I'd put in 0w-16. But if you live in an area cold enough to where oil flow is of concern you should get an engine block heater and run an extension cord from your garage with a time frame activated circuit that plugs into the wall inside the garage so it turns on for a while and turns off about 5-10 minutes before you typically go so you just unplug it from the car and go, then you get home and plug it in so it can turn on when programmed to do so then off right before you leave.

Another important thing to me in the cold is remote start. Letting a pan heater do its thing and remote start it a few minutes before climbing in and leaving would basically make the engine live long enough for the rest of the toyota to fall apart. Unless something was designed and or made wrong which is out of your control but if you did your best you can't blame yourself.

 

[JavierH19]

And regarding the wear concern there are engines in Europe that run both colder and have thicker oil in rhem and some of them have been torn apart with north of 300k having very little wear, and that same engine ran a thinner oil in most cases. But it's not so much the viscosity it's that their oil is typically more stout and higher saps than the crap we've had for the longest time.