Thicker is better in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Navi
I dont know about those engineers. Ive had plenty of problems before 100k miles. I think the engineers balance different interests. Toyota engineers seem concerned about reliability and mpg but I dont know about other engineers...
That's the same across the automotive industry. Take NASCAR for example. If the aerodynamics team had their way, there would be zero flow into the engine compartment and the engine would overheat very quickly. If the engine team had their way, there would be maximum air flow into the engine compartment and the car would be slow as balls (comparatively). They have to find a compromise. The OEMs are no different in this regard except unlike NASCAR where you have a known condition the engine will be in throughout its lifetime, the OEM has to compromise across the entire spectrum from one extreme to the other. They have no idea if the engine will spend its days gently gliding down the highway of the central plains, sitting in Miami traffic in 100*F heat and 90% humidity, dealing with the hot and sandy conditions of the desert, or trying to start and short trip in -40*F temps in the mountains of Alaska. Every scenario has to be accounted for. That's just in the engineering department. Throw in the marketing department wanting a global platform that is pleasing to the eye to sell it, and you get A LOT of compromises with a lot of room for error. The fact that widespread failures aren't more commonplace than they are is rather astounding.
 
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Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Why stop at 40 grade? Why not 50? 60?
I think one can still get Kendall's Nitro 70, which is just slightly more pumpable than a room temperature amorphous solid. Plus, it's got NITRO in the name so it's gotta be amazing! All my Subarus call for 30 weights. I've tried Valvoline MLFS, PP, PUP, RT6, Amsoil, Mobil 1, RK/HK, Ravenol etc etc etc.... in 30 and 40 weights and in my use and vehicles there has been no difference. On one vehicle I will try an oil and "perceive" a difference that I think is positive, and then try it on my other Subaru(s) to see if it has the same result, and nope. Almost never works that way, or else I'd only have one oil in all my vehicles and never buy anything else. They're even identical family model engines with roughly the same mileage... and yet the same oil doesn't give the same "benefits", and all of the UOAs are certainly within limits of statistical similarity. Considering I've had 1 EJ251, 4 EJ253s, and 1 EZ36D that I've cumulatively driven over 450,000 miles during the past 9 years, for NA Subarus I can pretty safely say that viscosity nor brand doesn't really make a difference to these engines. As a matter of fact, I've never had nor seen an engine where an oil made any real difference in testing results... as intelligent people on the board know, a UOA is NOT a good way to try to gauge "wear", it is only possible to use UOA data as a trend. Meaning, a couple PPM one way or the other will never make a difference... UOA is there to check viscosity, fuel dilution, and insolubles and that's really about it. I now simply buy the cheapest syn available when I'm in the store, or anything else that tweaks my fancy. I know it will not make one iota of difference to my engine, the air and oil filter are WAY more important to an engine than the oil itself.
 
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Originally Posted by dave1251
And yet not all of the engines failed what was the rate of failure before the grade recommendation change and after? Also passing the buck to the consumer for a design or manufacture failure is rather low.
Maybe Trav will weigh in. IIRC there was no manufacturing defect, the oil spec was wrong for the application, the engineers screwed up. Contrary to popular belief they make mistakes too. All Honda did was issue a TSB for a "thicker oil," and warrantied a boat load of engines that failed. Costly mistake, but obviously they bounced back from it. A count on failures, no clue, would a nfg. ever disclose that? No way! But lets say enough for them to take immediate action, and change the spec on the oil.
 
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Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Originally Posted by Navi
I dont know about those engineers. Ive had plenty of problems before 100k miles. I think the engineers balance different interests. Toyota engineers seem concerned about reliability and mpg but I dont know about other engineers...
That's the same across the automotive industry. Take NASCAR for example. If the aerodynamics team had their way, there would be zero flow into the engine compartment and the engine would overheat very quickly. If the engine team had their way, there would be maximum air flow into the engine compartment and the car would be slow as balls (comparatively). They have to find a compromise. The OEMs are no different in this regard except unlike NASCAR where you have a known condition the engine will be in throughout its lifetime, the OEM has to compromise across the entire spectrum from one extreme to the other. They have no idea if the engine will spend its days gently gliding down the highway of the central plains, sitting in Miami traffic in 100*F heat and 90% humidity, dealing with the hot and sandy conditions of the desert, or trying to start and short trip in -40*F temps in the mountains of Alaska. Every scenario has to be accounted for. That's just in the engineering department. Throw in the marketing department wanting a global platform that is pleasing to the eye to sell it, and you get A LOT of compromises with a lot of room for error. The fact that widespread failures aren't more commonplace than they are is rather astounding.
+1
 
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Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by The_Nuke
Originally Posted by tig1
Yes, best to stick with oil cap advise.
What if we cannot find the oil specified on our oil caps? [Linked Image]
Is Yo Mama thin or thick ?
Maybe like say... Jungle Pam LOL
 
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Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by The_Nuke
Originally Posted by tig1
Yes, best to stick with oil cap advise.
What if we cannot find the oil specified on our oil caps? [Linked Image]
Is Yo Mama thin or thick ?
Recent history with today's culture points to Yo' Mama as being thick and Yo' Dauter as being thin. Yo' Daddy and Yo' Son are currently MIA. My two Korean models will subscribe to the Thick Club. Neither will ever go hungry for quality name-brand oils either.
 
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East Tennessee
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by dave1251
And yet not all of the engines failed what was the rate of failure before the grade recommendation change and after? Also passing the buck to the consumer for a design or manufacture failure is rather low.
Maybe Trav will weigh in. IIRC there was no manufacturing defect, the oil spec was wrong for the application, the engineers screwed up. Contrary to popular belief they make mistakes too. All Honda did was issue a TSB for a "thicker oil," and warrantied a boat load of engines that failed. Costly mistake, but obviously they bounced back from it. A count on failures, no clue, would a nfg. ever disclose that? No way! But lets say enough for them to take immediate action, and change the spec on the oil.
Exception rather than the rule.
 
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by dave1251
And yet not all of the engines failed what was the rate of failure before the grade recommendation change and after? Also passing the buck to the consumer for a design or manufacture failure is rather low.
Maybe Trav will weigh in. IIRC there was no manufacturing defect, the oil spec was wrong for the application, the engineers screwed up. Contrary to popular belief they make mistakes too. All Honda did was issue a TSB for a "thicker oil," and warrantied a boat load of engines that failed. Costly mistake, but obviously they bounced back from it. A count on failures, no clue, would a nfg. ever disclose that? No way! But lets say enough for them to take immediate action, and change the spec on the oil.
When the Ford Modular 4.6L V8 made its debut in the 1991 Lincoln Town Car, Ford spec'd 20W-40 in the Middle East. This was carryover from the old 5.0L OHV V8. The same engine spec'd 5W-30 in the U.S. Motorcraft had a 20W-40 oil available at that time, and that's what many folks around here used. Even though there were "valve seal issues" with the motor, until it was addressed around 1995/1996, it was not an issue in this neck of the woods. The same can be said about the infamous Mitsubishi 6G72 3.0L 12-valve, which spec'd 15W-40 here. I ran an ILSAC spec 10W-30 in mine, because "that's what was spec'd in the U.S." and ended up having valve seal and guide issues 8 years into the vehicle's life. One could argue thicker oil just didn't leak into the combustion chamber due to its higher viscosity, but a lot of times, the valve seals were still pretty pliable when the heads were pulled off for a head job, etc. due to a failed radiator or something else. When Ford addressed the valve seal issue on the 4.6L, Motorcraft 20W-40 became obsolete and 10W-30 became the default standard in the Middle East - right through to the end of the engine's production cycle in 2012. Vehicles spec'd for the USDM started calling for 5W-20 in MY2001. Ford went as far as increasing oil capacity by 2 quarts for MY2003. I can't comment on whether that was because one of its primary applications was redesigned, or if Ford had issues with engines that had 5 quart oil capacities. Regardless, there are a ton of 4.6L V8s running on oil as thick as 20W-50 around here with zero issues. Some folks switched to 5W-20, simply because Ford never changed the oil caps with 5W-20 printed on them for export vehicles, and people thought they were doing the engine a "favor" by using what was "spec'd" for the USDM, just like I did with the Mitsubishi 3.0L. Lifter noise was a major complaint in the summer with temperatures over 120°F - you'd be sat in traffic with the AC on full blast and hear the lifters clattering once things really start heating up. Many went back to 10W-30. Some folks, myself included, run 15W-40 HDEO and even 10W-60 with no issues. Friend of mine has been running Liqui-Moly 10W-60 in his 4.6L 2V since he drove his Grand Marquis off the showroom floor in 2005; last I saw the car a couple weeks ago, it had ~482,000 km (301,250 mi) on the original engine and still running strong. Other manufacturers, especially those selling their own "genuine motor oil", sell 20W-50. Toyota does this, as does Nissan. Mitsubishi and Hyundai/Kia sell their own 15W-40 and Honda sells their own 5W-30 meeting ACEA A3. The Subaru dealer uses and sells 15W-40, Mercedes-Benz, VAG and BMW spec 5W-40. BMW specs 10W-60 for M Series vehicles.
 
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its a combination of the pressure&output of the pump, the volume of the galleries, viscosity of the fluid and the rate of leakage out of the side of the bearing. every engine will have its 'sweet spot' but they will all be in different places
 
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Originally Posted by Falcon_LS
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by dave1251
And yet not all of the engines failed what was the rate of failure before the grade recommendation change and after? Also passing the buck to the consumer for a design or manufacture failure is rather low.
Maybe Trav will weigh in. IIRC there was no manufacturing defect, the oil spec was wrong for the application, the engineers screwed up. Contrary to popular belief they make mistakes too. All Honda did was issue a TSB for a "thicker oil," and warrantied a boat load of engines that failed. Costly mistake, but obviously they bounced back from it. A count on failures, no clue, would a nfg. ever disclose that? No way! But lets say enough for them to take immediate action, and change the spec on the oil.
When the Ford Modular 4.6L V8 made its debut in the 1991 Lincoln Town Car, Ford spec'd 20W-40 in the Middle East. This was carryover from the old 5.0L OHV V8. The same engine spec'd 5W-30 in the U.S. Motorcraft had a 20W-40 oil available at that time, and that's what many folks around here used. Even though there were "valve seal issues" with the motor, until it was addressed around 1995/1996, it was not an issue in this neck of the woods. The same can be said about the infamous Mitsubishi 6G72 3.0L 12-valve, which spec'd 15W-40 here. I ran an ILSAC spec 10W-30 in mine, because "that's what was spec'd in the U.S." and ended up having valve seal and guide issues 8 years into the vehicle's life. One could argue thicker oil just didn't leak into the combustion chamber due to its higher viscosity, but a lot of times, the valve seals were still pretty pliable when the heads were pulled off for a head job, etc. due to a failed radiator or something else. When Ford addressed the valve seal issue on the 4.6L, Motorcraft 20W-40 became obsolete and 10W-30 became the default standard in the Middle East - right through to the end of the engine's production cycle in 2012. Vehicles spec'd for the USDM started calling for 5W-20 in MY2001. Ford went as far as increasing oil capacity by 2 quarts for MY2003. I can't comment on whether that was because one of its primary applications was redesigned, or if Ford had issues with engines that had 5 quart oil capacities. Regardless, there are a ton of 4.6L V8s running on oil as thick as 20W-50 around here with zero issues. Some folks switched to 5W-20, simply because Ford never changed the oil caps with 5W-20 printed on them for export vehicles, and people thought they were doing the engine a "favor" by using what was "spec'd" for the USDM, just like I did with the Mitsubishi 3.0L. Lifter noise was a major complaint in the summer with temperatures over 120°F - you'd be sat in traffic with the AC on full blast and hear the lifters clattering once things really start heating up. Many went back to 10W-30. Some folks, myself included, run 15W-40 HDEO and even 10W-60 with no issues. Friend of mine has been running Liqui-Moly 10W-60 in his 4.6L 2V since he drove his Grand Marquis off the showroom floor in 2005; last I saw the car a couple weeks ago, it had ~482,000 km (301,250 mi) on the original engine and still running strong. Other manufacturers, especially those selling their own "genuine motor oil", sell 20W-50. Toyota does this, as does Nissan. Mitsubishi and Hyundai/Kia sell their own 15W-40 and Honda sells their own 5W-30 meeting ACEA A3. The Subaru dealer uses and sells 15W-40, Mercedes-Benz, VAG and BMW spec 5W-40. BMW specs 10W-60 for M Series vehicles.
Sometimes you have to think out of the box, and common sense and a little knowledge about engines trumps what's stamped on the oil fill cap. It seems to me that's the case in your neck of the woods.
 

Navi

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The Middle East or a place like Arizona where its over 100 degrees constantly I can imagine an ideal place to run it thicker. However places like Alaska I think one can go thinner. In any event the people who live there know what they are up against and what they have to do. Ive settled on 5W40. Im not certain if its the most ideal weight but I know I need something thicker than the suggested viscosity. In the Suburbans we get lifter problems and in the Ecoboosts we get timing chain stretch. In both cases I think its obvious we need more protection than Motorcraft semi synthetic 5W30 or for the Suburban 0W20! Run around NYC all day...start stop...70k a year...0w20 is not going to cut it.
 
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Originally Posted by demarpaint
Sometimes you have to think out of the box, and common sense and a little knowledge about engines trumps what's stamped on the oil fill cap. It seems to me that's the case in your neck of the woods.
Pretty much. Last I heard, Chrysler was having issues here with their ACEA C3 spec oils due to fuel quality. Ford wasn't covering their catalytic converters/emissions under warranty here for some time, due to metallic based additives in the fuel. What works in the U.S. won't necessarily work here and visa-versa.
Originally Posted by Navi
The Middle East or a place like Arizona where its over 100 degrees constantly I can imagine an ideal place to run it thicker. However places like Alaska I think one can go thinner. In any event the people who live there know what they are up against and what they have to do. Ive settled on 5W40. Im not certain if its the most ideal weight but I know I need something thicker than the suggested viscosity. In the Suburbans we get lifter problems and in the Ecoboosts we get timing chain stretch. In both cases I think its obvious we need more protection than Motorcraft semi synthetic 5W30 or for the Suburban 0W20! Run around NYC all day...start stop...70k a year...0w20 is not going to cut it.
I can't speak for the Ecoboosts, but 5W-40 is a decent viscosity to run in a GM 5.3L/6.2L. I wouldn't want to be be running 0W-20 in armored Suburbans, especially with high stress motorcade driving.
 
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If I was to ever move to the desert, I'd go with a larger pan for increased oil capacity to help with oil dwell and heat dissipation, an oil cooler to also help with heat dissipation, and bypass filtration to help out with the dirty, sandy conditions. Then stick with the same 20 or 30 grade.
 

4WD

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The L83 went through many head and lubrication system changes … but think it was Clinebarger who noted they still use the same lifter hardware from the days of 5w30 …
 
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Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
If I was to ever move to the desert, I'd go with a larger pan for increased oil capacity to help with oil dwell and heat dissipation, an oil cooler to also help with heat dissipation, and bypass filtration to help out with the dirty, sandy conditions. Then stick with the same 20 or 30 grade.
I lived in Phoenix. It's not as hot and dusty as one would think. But that's Phoenix.
 
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Toyota specs a wide range of oil viscosities for varying temps in its 1GR-FE (4v DOHC V6 - Tacoma, landcruiser, Hilux, 4Runner, etc...) on the world market. But only one per vehicle type in the US. CAFE requires US manufacturers provide the oil viscosity used for CAFE testing to be printed in the manual and on the fuel cap. Hence why you tend to see only a single viscosity on a majority of newer cars sold in the US. It's ridiculous that an engine that specs 5w30, 10w30, 15w40, and 20w50 in Australia ONLY specs 5w30 in the US. Sure there might be differences but I'll bet the ones that matter, I.e. bearing clearances, etc. are the same. If your usage tends towards "severe" or your annual average temps are high, I don't see an issue with a heavier oil. Let's not pretend like 0w20 is anything but a CAFE required crutch to eek another 1/2MPG overall for manufacturer fleet totals. Manufacturers are building many of the same engines for other markets and recommending thicker oils. A little common sense goes a long way.
 

Navi

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The manufacturers should create a list of situations when you should use a certain grade like living in Alaska, etc. but they dont and thats because of CAFE. They just want you to keep using 0W20 or 5W20 for CAFE...
 
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