thick and thin and perspective

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quote:

Originally posted by bruce381:

quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
Good point, mori. I believe Titan is thinking along the same lines. There's at least three engine areas of consideration as this graph depicts.
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Where did this graph come from?
I do not agree that EHD lubrication takes place much in a modern engine let alone the rings, also lowest friction would be in the HDL range not the EHD range since EHD is basicly a sold lube at that point friction or drag will rise.
bruce


 
"Different pistons, rings, bearings, clearances, etc. But what the heck, we all know the engineers don't have the same superior knowledge as some BITOG lubrication specialist."

That's not really the point though. The car was evidently being updated to serve as an example of a very high performance vehicle, around the same time that Ford was also continuing to develop the use of 5w20 across it's fleet. If one accepts Ford's own statement that 5w20 was being issued for fuel economy resons it's easy to understand why the Cobra R had a factory fill of 15W50. If instead one is trying to make the claim that 5w20 provides the best possible wear protection, in any circumstance, then it's hard to understand why Ford didn't use it in such a showcase vehicle, and evidently still doesn't. After all, it's been commonly pointed out that 20 weight oils are used in racing. Even a 30 weight oil woudl be easy to understand, but why a 50 weight ?
 
bruce381, with 32 years as a Tribology CLS, I'm surprised you didn't recognize the Stribeck Curve. Have another look at the dimensions on the X-axis, it should spark one of those old brain cells.

[ March 19, 2006, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]
 
This PDF file* contains information regarding ring and cylinder lubrication, wear, type of lubrication, coatings, etc. It might be of interest to some.

*clicking will start download
 
Well, looks like another thread has degenerated into pseudo-science, thanks to Mr Bonehead. Enjoy folks, I'm moving on.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 427Z06:
bruce381, with 32 years as a Tribology CLS, I'm surprised you didn't recognize the Stribeck Curve. Have another look at the dimensions on the X-axis, it should spark one of those old brain cells.

OK took a second look IF the piston ring note is changed to gears and the slope of the HDL range is flattened more then I agree otherwise graph is wrong IMHO.
I do not know the name of the graph it seems new info I pick up pushes out some old info guess my "hard drive is full"
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bruce
bruce
 
"Well, looks like another thread has degenerated into pseudo-science, thanks to Mr Bonehead. Enjoy folks, I'm moving on."

Typical comments when there is no honest or logical way out of an invalid position.

http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubrican...?product=SAE 5W-50 Full Synthetic Motor Oil&c

ategory=Motor%20Oil

Motorcraft® SAE 5W-50 Full Synthetic Motor Oil is designed, engineered and recommended by Ford Motor Company for use in the

Ford GT. It meets API Service Category SL/CF

http://eolcs.api.org/FindBrandByViscosity.asp?Viscosity=5W-50

FORD MOTOR COMPANY MOTORCRAFT FULL SYNTHETIC 5W-50 SL/CF
 
I didn't realize Motorcraft made a 5w50. (They really don't, in fact, since Motorcraft oils are made by ConocoPhillips.) If you check out the MSDS you see that this isn't a PAO based oil.

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The API page you linked just gives a list of all API approved 5w50 oils. Not all of these are available in the US.
 
Well, it took a while for me to catch-up on previous postings. My only reference for now will be "I think I read it here" or "was directed to the reference from here" If I say anything that controversial, maybe I will take the time to backtrack and find the references. Or maybe someone else can chime in. Here are my two cents.

According to previous MolaKule posts that Hirev brought up, HTHS is one of the better correlates to wear. I think the data would support that higher HTHS is correlated with less wear under high stress/load conditions but that "acceptable wear" or "acceptable protection can be provided with a wide range of HTHS values. Since viscosity is correlated with but not a determinant of HTHS then higher viscosity would "tend" to protect better. However, many lower viscosity fomulations could be made that protected better than many higher viscosity formulations. I do not need to describe either as "old" or "crappy" or any other inflamatory adjective. Both catagories can be very acceptible oils. So, viscosity alone cannot determine the better oil in terms of wear. As 1sttruck has shouted from the mountain tops, "if all else is equal"... Well all else is never equal, but I agree in principle if not in practice.

I am absolutely convinced that xW20 oils can provide excellent protection of motor designed for it AND motors designed with other viscosities in mind. I agree with 427z06 that thin oils can be great and that higher viscosity oils may not be as good a choice in the real world where "real world" refers to most drivers and most applications. I have become curious if xW20 technology can be applied to other viscosities to make them even better at protection of wear.

It may be asking alot, but I think that I could benefit from 427z06 and 1sttruck clarifying a few things. I have become confused. Your banter could be useful to me if I actually understood the difference of oppinion as oppose to the critique of style. Can either of you explain to me where you think you agree with other? Additionally, can you list the SINGLE issue were you think that you disagree the most on the thick/thin issue.

Would either of you take the time to clarify these things for me. I would appreciate your efforts. Short, long, I don't care. I just want to understand.
 
The 2007 Shelby is apparently another 'upgrade' of the engine usd in the SVT. Hey, why did Ford leave out the 5w20 ?

http://www.stangnet.com/2005-Mustang/2007-shelby-gt500-182006-4.html

Just as the big-block GT500 from 1968 was a step up from the GT350, the 2007 Ford Shelby GT500’s 475 horsepower, 5.4-liter V-8 is a step up from the 4.6-liter V-8 used in yesterday’s SVT Mustang Cobra.

http://www.mustangheaven.com/stangspecs/2007shelbygt500/07shelby_specs.htm

2007 Ford Shelby GT500 Specifications

Oil capacity 6.0 quarts 5W-50 Full Synthetic
 
It specs 5w50 oil? There is only one synthetic 5w50 on the retail market in North America and that's Castrol Syntec. Something tells me the "5w50" on that page is a typo.
 
"I am absolutely convinced that xW20 oils can provide excellent protection of motor designed for it AND motors designed with other viscosities in mind."

The evidence is overwhelming, and I don't think that many would disagree.

"I agree with 427z06 that thin oils can be great and that higher viscosity oils may not be as good a choice in the real world where "real world" refers to most drivers and most applications."

Now you've moved from statements about a specific paramater, such as 'protection' mentioned above which I think that most would interpret as wear, to a big pile of assumptions about what a good choice is. We can go and on about a good choice is, what the real world is, and what most applications consist of. You need to be more specific here. For me a good choice is maximum engine life, as one additional year in vehicle life is a lot of money these days, considering the cost of vehicles. This is a poor choice for a lot of people as looking at many around me I see a lot of purchases for some sort of 'fashion / lifestyle' statement, their vehicle is 'who they are', so they certainly don't want to have to live with a beater for what could be a long time. A lot more people are concerned with fuel mileage, some are concerned with maximum power output, and these tend to be at odds with the thicker oils typically used where maximum engine life is a concern.

"I have become curious if xW20 technology can be applied to other viscosities to make them even better at protection of wear. "

The primary driver for 5w20 oils, increased fuel economy, seems to have generated almost a kind of golden age of research in lubricants, as there is interest in better fuel economy, lower emmisisons, better wear performance, higher output, etc., in all engines. Lubricants these days provide a lot better performance than many of a decade ago, and we'll continue to improvements. To their credit Ford seems to be a driver in this area, as they seem to be using 5w20 oils in Europe now, and have already most of their vehicles in the US using this oil.

"It may be asking alot, but I think that I could benefit from 427z06 and 1sttruck clarifying a few things. I have become confused. Your banter could be useful to me if I actually understood the difference of oppinion as oppose to the critique of style. Can either of you explain to me where you think you agree with other? Additionally, can you list the SINGLE issue were you think that you disagree the most on the thick/thin issue."

There are two issues here, one of continued ad hominum attacks, the other about what results in 'maximum engine life'. I've tried to refrain from too many personal attacks as based on what I've seen so far I think that 427z06 has some sort of affliction that he has no control over, and it would not be right on my part to to get too nasty. He has made too many serious errors in basic comprehension and reasoning to just be considered as being 'sloppy'. That's all that I'll say about that. Regarding what will produce maximum engine life, well, join in the discussion.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
I've tried to refrain from too many personal attacks as based on what I've seen so far I think that 427z06 has some sort of affliction that he has no control over, and it would not be right on my part to to get too nasty. He has made too many serious errors in basic comprehension and reasoning to just be considered as being 'sloppy'. That's all that I'll say about that.

You complain about ad hominem attacks and then in the same post write this?
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confused.gif
 
"You complain about ad hominem attacks and then in the same post write this?"

I'm trying to objective here, to offer a possible reason on what seems to be going on. I can detail out my observations, but at this point it would not benefit the discussion. Instead I'm suggesting that we just continue living with it, and letting the moderators step in as they see fit.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
He has made too many serious errors in basic comprehension and reasoning to just be considered as being 'sloppy'.

According to who? YOU? It's interesting that with this affliction I've amassed two science degrees and an engineering degree and have been employed as an engineer for over two decades.
lol.gif
 
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