These guys have no clue....
- Thread starter LateArrivalforLSU
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Just have some understanding for the resistance to the idea of tp filtration. It's too fundamental for most people to grasp that something as cheap and that old can be viable in this modern world where everything else that is from that era has long ago been superceded by more effective measures. This is surely an exception to most rules.
They are extrapolating from what a painful job a Fram does of wiping your a**.
Now I remember why I don't go on that site anymore.
The first person that showed me a TP bypass setup on his Volvo and told me that he never changed the oil again, I wrote off as a complete idiot. This was in 1971. Only about a year ago did I realize that he knew a lot more than I did. Sometimes it takes a while.
I didn't read it but I can see where they are coming from. If it is so effective, why does it have to be changed every 3k miles. Because there are better alternatives. I'd just replace 1qt of oil every 3k than spend money on one of those.
Actually that works better than you might think. I had a 1976 Rabbit that used a half quart of oil every 10 gallons of gas (valve guide seals). I put so much oil in it that it never got dirty. I finally just started changing the filter every 6 months or so. I finally got the seals replaced and started changing the oil again when the consumption dropped. I sold the thing still running with over 300K miles and the engine had never been apart.
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Well, that's the thing about tp. It's so effective that it has to be changed more often than just about any other media. It is the finest cheap media available.
Although swapping out a quart of oil every 3k would probably keep your additive package intact, it would not provide the high level of filtration that a roll of tp can. Since you have to employ some type of labor to swap out a quart of oil every 3k ..you might as well just exchange the roll of tp and have the finest filtration at probably 20 or 40 times the cost.
johnd - you effectively had a perpetual oil change going on there.
Chances are he didn't end up not BUYING oil tho.
I sure wouldn't want to have to wipe with the paper I use in my MG. At least on a regular basis. Definitly John Wayne TP. Ruff and tuff and doesn't take no crap off nobody
I think oil filters are too simple for people to understand. The only way one filter can go longer before changing without more engine wear is if it is larger. The reality doesn't change. The smaller the filter the more often it must be changed. The better the filter the more often it needs to be changed.
One filter maker might have recommendations designed to sell filters and another filter company might have recommendations designed to get longer engine life. You also need enough new oil added to keep the additives up and to delute the soot particles that are too small to be filtered out by even TP. If you look at a roll of firm TP you would think that nothing could get thru it. Some diesel soot is smaller than cigarette smoke. Cigarette smoke is about as small as you can remove with TP. At a NAPA store there was aa cut away of a BE-100. I was surprised to see that it was a large housing with an element smaller than a roll of TP and with less density. One of the advantages is when you change it you would be adding more make up oil. It was a dual remote system on a Duramax diesel mount. I asked them why someone would want to relocate the Durmax full flow filter when all you need is a sandwich adapter and two oil lines going to the bypass filter. They didn't have a clue. One of them mentioned that there is a guy around town that sells TP filters. I said yes the TP filters have never been beaten, I've used them for 40 years.
I don't have any brand loyalty. I have my opinion which product is best and I go with that. Any filter packed with cellulose is going to clean oil. The "you get what you pay for" crowd isn't going to buy a TP filter.
Ralph
One filter maker might have recommendations designed to sell filters and another filter company might have recommendations designed to get longer engine life. You also need enough new oil added to keep the additives up and to delute the soot particles that are too small to be filtered out by even TP. If you look at a roll of firm TP you would think that nothing could get thru it. Some diesel soot is smaller than cigarette smoke. Cigarette smoke is about as small as you can remove with TP. At a NAPA store there was aa cut away of a BE-100. I was surprised to see that it was a large housing with an element smaller than a roll of TP and with less density. One of the advantages is when you change it you would be adding more make up oil. It was a dual remote system on a Duramax diesel mount. I asked them why someone would want to relocate the Durmax full flow filter when all you need is a sandwich adapter and two oil lines going to the bypass filter. They didn't have a clue. One of them mentioned that there is a guy around town that sells TP filters. I said yes the TP filters have never been beaten, I've used them for 40 years.
I don't have any brand loyalty. I have my opinion which product is best and I go with that. Any filter packed with cellulose is going to clean oil. The "you get what you pay for" crowd isn't going to buy a TP filter.
Ralph
Ralph,
Cigarette smoke particles, to the best of my knowledge, are in the 15 micron range.
The AMSOIL BE-xx medium has an absolute 3 mircont, in use less than 1 micron filtration. Far as density, I think a careful examination would show you that is it already compressed wood and paper fibers, and considerably denser than a roll of TP.
Some years ago, I talked to the AMSOIL tech who designed the original AMSOIL Bypass Filters. He said they had looked at a number of sandwich adaptors, and for whatever reason didn't find them acceptable.
Cigarette smoke particles, to the best of my knowledge, are in the 15 micron range.
The AMSOIL BE-xx medium has an absolute 3 mircont, in use less than 1 micron filtration. Far as density, I think a careful examination would show you that is it already compressed wood and paper fibers, and considerably denser than a roll of TP.
Some years ago, I talked to the AMSOIL tech who designed the original AMSOIL Bypass Filters. He said they had looked at a number of sandwich adaptors, and for whatever reason didn't find them acceptable.
Or a resin system.
TP degrades, that's what it's designed to do.
TP won't degrade in oil...
Frantz was big on filter studies back in the 50s and 60s. Most of us got our start with Frantz. Frantz literature tells me that a human hair averages about 90 microns. The smallest particle visible to the human eye is about 40 microns. Fine sand is about 12 microns. Atmosperic dust is from 1 micron down to about 1 tenth micron, carbon black is around 7 or 8 100ths of 1 micron. Rod bearings, main bearings, valve stems and piston clearances are about 20 microns down to about 8 microns. Diesel fuel injector, oil ring to piston groove, cam to hydraulic lifter, push rod to lifter, rocker arm to valve stem, automatic transmission control valve to valve body clearances are between 2 microns down to about 1 tenth micron. The report came out after the Aero Frantz was certified by the FAA. Frantz got FAA certification for the Aero Frantz about 1971.
Cigarette smoke is about 1/10th of 1 micron. Cigarette smoke is mentioned because a high quality tightly wound roll of TP is rated at 1/10th micron filtration. I got started using sandwich adapters made by Frantz in the early 80s. Frantz was big on adapters. When Amsoil first came out with their bypass filter some dedicated Amsoil users wanted to use the Frantz sandwich adapters with the Amsoil filters. Your man up there said they would make the bypass filter not work. The proper filter to use with a sandwich adapter is the Frantz or Motor Guard. I like the Perma-Cool sandwich adapter better. It helps to understand sandwich adapters. Most of the people I deal with understand that a TP filter will restrict the oil flow like a clogged oil cooler. The oil must have another way of getting to the full flow filter. That would be thru the sandwich adapter relief valve. If you feel the relief valve is too small you can drill the adapter. If the sandwich adapter has no relief valve such as with a GM model the relief valve in the filter mount will open and bypass both filters. That will turn the engine into a straight bypass system like a 53 Chevy. The reason these companies like www.jegs.com stay in business is there are a lot of gear heads out there that can handle understanding where the oil goes when the bypass filter can't supply the engine or when the oil cooler is clogged or too cold. I have some California gear heads that are installing a filter remote mount kit on their diesel pickups. The filter remote mount has four ports. Then they are using the two extra ports to hook up the Motor Guard. They are using the pressure drop thru the full flow filter to feed the Motor Guard. I do that at work on a large air compressor but haven't tried it on a engine. Some want to get the Cummins full flow filter where it is easy to get to. A bypass filter will clean better at low pressure drops. the Motor Guard is running on a 3 PSI pressure drop thru the full flow filter on the air comressor. The Motor Guard keeps the full flow filter clean so it stays at 3 PSI.
I don't want to bad mouth Amsoil users. They take care of their equipment and they buy TP filters. I know there are the ones that say if it has Amsoil written on it it is the best.
The reason I use the Perma-Cool isn't because I think it is better than the other sandwich adapters. I have been getting some that have the ports tapped too deep. If someone wants to use a sandwich adapter as only a pressure source simply drill a few holes in the adapter to eliminate any pressure drop and plug one port. Return the clean oil to the engine in the conventional way. The restrictor orifice isn't needed when you use the two port sandwich adapter because you aren't taking oil off the system. If you convert the sandwich adapter to a one port adapter you will need the restrictor orifice. It is easy with an oil pressure gauge. If the oil pressure comes up good after the installation and the Motor Guard heats up it is working. If not drill the adapter. Drill the relief too large and there won't be enough pressure drop to feed the Motor Guard. 7/32" for a large engine will work. I wouldn't drill the adapter on a small engine like my Subaru. I drilled the adapter on the Subaru 1/4". It worked but it took too long to heat up the Motor guard. On my 20 HP Kohler engine the Motor Guard depends on the spring in the sandwich adapter relief valve.That was a problem with the Frantz sandwich adapters. They sometimes didn't have enough flow thru the adapter to feed the bypass filter on a small engine. There were no springs to hold a small pressure on the bypass filter. They had to cover a large range between a lawn mower and a large V-8 engine. The Perma-Cool people say the relief valve is large enough to handle the flow. The problem might be in the real world where the engine might have some bearing wear and needs more oil flow to pressure up the engine. Then you might have someone with a worn oil pump that doesn't have enough oil pressure to open the 2 PSI relief valve in the adapter at idle. You can't base everything on ideal new engine conditions.
It is probably not a good idea to put a cut away filter where a TP filter user can see it.
Ralph
Cigarette smoke is about 1/10th of 1 micron. Cigarette smoke is mentioned because a high quality tightly wound roll of TP is rated at 1/10th micron filtration. I got started using sandwich adapters made by Frantz in the early 80s. Frantz was big on adapters. When Amsoil first came out with their bypass filter some dedicated Amsoil users wanted to use the Frantz sandwich adapters with the Amsoil filters. Your man up there said they would make the bypass filter not work. The proper filter to use with a sandwich adapter is the Frantz or Motor Guard. I like the Perma-Cool sandwich adapter better. It helps to understand sandwich adapters. Most of the people I deal with understand that a TP filter will restrict the oil flow like a clogged oil cooler. The oil must have another way of getting to the full flow filter. That would be thru the sandwich adapter relief valve. If you feel the relief valve is too small you can drill the adapter. If the sandwich adapter has no relief valve such as with a GM model the relief valve in the filter mount will open and bypass both filters. That will turn the engine into a straight bypass system like a 53 Chevy. The reason these companies like www.jegs.com stay in business is there are a lot of gear heads out there that can handle understanding where the oil goes when the bypass filter can't supply the engine or when the oil cooler is clogged or too cold. I have some California gear heads that are installing a filter remote mount kit on their diesel pickups. The filter remote mount has four ports. Then they are using the two extra ports to hook up the Motor Guard. They are using the pressure drop thru the full flow filter to feed the Motor Guard. I do that at work on a large air compressor but haven't tried it on a engine. Some want to get the Cummins full flow filter where it is easy to get to. A bypass filter will clean better at low pressure drops. the Motor Guard is running on a 3 PSI pressure drop thru the full flow filter on the air comressor. The Motor Guard keeps the full flow filter clean so it stays at 3 PSI.
I don't want to bad mouth Amsoil users. They take care of their equipment and they buy TP filters. I know there are the ones that say if it has Amsoil written on it it is the best.
The reason I use the Perma-Cool isn't because I think it is better than the other sandwich adapters. I have been getting some that have the ports tapped too deep. If someone wants to use a sandwich adapter as only a pressure source simply drill a few holes in the adapter to eliminate any pressure drop and plug one port. Return the clean oil to the engine in the conventional way. The restrictor orifice isn't needed when you use the two port sandwich adapter because you aren't taking oil off the system. If you convert the sandwich adapter to a one port adapter you will need the restrictor orifice. It is easy with an oil pressure gauge. If the oil pressure comes up good after the installation and the Motor Guard heats up it is working. If not drill the adapter. Drill the relief too large and there won't be enough pressure drop to feed the Motor Guard. 7/32" for a large engine will work. I wouldn't drill the adapter on a small engine like my Subaru. I drilled the adapter on the Subaru 1/4". It worked but it took too long to heat up the Motor guard. On my 20 HP Kohler engine the Motor Guard depends on the spring in the sandwich adapter relief valve.That was a problem with the Frantz sandwich adapters. They sometimes didn't have enough flow thru the adapter to feed the bypass filter on a small engine. There were no springs to hold a small pressure on the bypass filter. They had to cover a large range between a lawn mower and a large V-8 engine. The Perma-Cool people say the relief valve is large enough to handle the flow. The problem might be in the real world where the engine might have some bearing wear and needs more oil flow to pressure up the engine. Then you might have someone with a worn oil pump that doesn't have enough oil pressure to open the 2 PSI relief valve in the adapter at idle. You can't base everything on ideal new engine conditions.
It is probably not a good idea to put a cut away filter where a TP filter user can see it.
Ralph
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