"The Right Climate Stuff" .... A realistic view of global environmental issues from Tom Moser

Status
Not open for further replies.
dnewton3

dnewton3

Staff member
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
11,403
Location
Indianapolis, IN
This presentation is excellent for several reasons:
- Tom Moser is a very accomplished NASA engineer
- The "team" of scientists are comprised of many top people across many disciplines; they are retired and not paid for the work they did, so there's absolutely no loyalty to any political affiliation or corporation
- their motto ... "In God We Trust; All Others Bring Data" lends creedence to their mantra of using facts and not rhetoric to come to sound conclusions about our global climate

If you're going to make a comment, don't go into the abyss and get this thread locked.
Set aside your personal bias and listen to the FACTS presented in this video.
The material goes quickly; it's helpful to pause the video and look at the slides which have excellent data in the charts and graphs.

 
climate.nasa.gov

Scientific Consensus

It’s important to remember that scientists always focus on the evidence, not on opinions. Scientific evidence continues to show that human activities (primarily the human burning of fossil fuels) have warmed Earth’s surface and its ocean basins, which in turn have continued to impact Earth’s...
climate.nasa.gov climate.nasa.gov

Here is NASA's actual stance on climate change, not the opinion of a retired mechanical engineer.
 
Vercingetorix said:
A mechanical engineer is not a climate scientist.
Click to expand...
And a stay-at-home Mom that had six children and is pregnant, is not able to tell when she is going into labor because she is not a licensed medical professional.......

The question is does the presenter have the ability to critically think. I suspect a retired NASA mechanical engineer likely has that quality.
 
Last edited:
GON said:
And a stay-at-home Mom that had had six children and is pregnant, is not able to tell when she is going into labor because she is not a licensed medical professional.......

The question is does the presenter have the ability to critical think. I suspect a retired NASA mechanical engineer likely has that quality.
Click to expand...
It’s a logical fallacy:
www.grammarly.com

Appeal to Authority Fallacy: Definition and Examples

When you need to support a claim, it can be tempting to support it with a statement from an authority figure. But if…
www.grammarly.com www.grammarly.com
 
Let's get an opinion on climate change from a jurassic era scientist.

dinosaur.jpg
 
MrHorspwer said:
He is speaking at a conference put on by The Heartland Institute, a conservative think tank that was formed and funded initially by tobacco companies to dispute claims that smoking is harmful.

The Heartland Institute is a political organization, not matter what admins or staff members say.

The Heartland Institute is the political polar opposite of a group like Greenpeace of Sierra Club.

If I were to post an "politically unbiased expert" speaking at a Greenpeace conference, it would be locked for politics so fast there wouldn't even be a first reply.
Click to expand...
The Heartland Institute was the entity that posted the video; that's true. HOWEVER ... the presentation was at the ICCC, The Internation Climate Change Conference hosted by the United Nations. The fact that the Heartland Institute posted it on YT does not mean the presenation itself is biased. Even if you believe there's bias in the organization, where's the bias in the facts? Where's the bias in the charts and graphs?

As is clearly laid out in the video, the people who did the research are retired from all manner of disciplines; this just isn't one NASA guy's opinion. The team consisted of:
- Physicists, Chemists, Engineers, Astrophysicists, Mathematicians, Geologists, Meterologists
This ain't your average group of people; they were tops in their field.
Further, they were not paid for their work. And they are all retired, so they had no loyalty to any cause or corporation.


MrHorspwer said:
climate.nasa.gov

Scientific Consensus

It’s important to remember that scientists always focus on the evidence, not on opinions. Scientific evidence continues to show that human activities (primarily the human burning of fossil fuels) have warmed Earth’s surface and its ocean basins, which in turn have continued to impact Earth’s...
climate.nasa.gov climate.nasa.gov

Here is NASA's actual stance on climate change, not the opinion of a retired mechanical engineer.
Click to expand...
There was never any claim by Moser that the earth isn't warming overall. In fact, there's proof right in the presentation charts that the earth is warming.
FACT: The earth is coming out of it's 5th ice age ... of course it's warming!
FACT: What he proves is that MAN isn't the major cause of earth warming; it's nature!
FACT: There was more CO2 released in one volcanic episode in 1991 than the entire amount of CO2 caused by mankind EVER.
FACT: The contribution of man's effect by means of CO2 is a fractional pittance.

MrHorspwer, YOU CLEARLY DIDN'T WATCH THE VIDEO.
 
Last edited:
Google "Earth Ice Age" and you'll get a lot of images, but this one below is as good as any other ...

EARTH IS COMING OUT OF IT'S 5th ICE AGE !!!!!
Of course it's warming. No sane person would say otherwise.

The questions are these:
- is this warming unprecedented?
- what is causing the warming?

Is this unprecedented?
NO!
Notice that the average Earth temps are lows around 50F, and highs around 75F. The Earth has been warming and cooling for more than two million years. This ain't news.

What is causing the warming?
Natural phenomenon in Earth's orbit over millenia, the Sun's effect on our atmosphere, the release of gases from natural causes (mainly volcanos), vapor changes in the atmosphere, etc ....
But here's what's clear:
Man didn't cause ANY of those 5 Ice Ages, and Man didn't cause any of the 4 preceeding warming periods. Why does anyone think that we're causing the current "warming" now??????

Man isn't that he's causing the warming period; Nature is!
Man is ignoring what Nature has been doing for 2.5 Million years BEFORE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION EVER HAPPENED.


Please explain to me how 150 years of fossil fuel use (the industrial revolution) is somehow the cause of "warming" now, when the Earth has a cyclical history of warming and cooling WAY, WAY BEFORE MAN EVER GOT HERE.


ice_ages1.gif
 
Last edited:
buster said:
The resistance to the idea that humans have accelerated global temperatures baffles me.
Click to expand...
That's not an unfair criticism. I would counter with this ...
Do we have the infallable science today to claim with the utmost certainty either way; yes or no?
Just 40'ish years ago, then reknowned scientists were telling us we were heading into another ice age; that the Earth was going to be cooling drastically.

The Earth warms and cools over hundreds of thousands of years, and yet we're trying to define the "acceleration" of temps in real time.
Isn't that like trying to measure the velocity of a race car over the course of one second on lap 100, and somehow try to predict the winner of the 200 lap race? My point is that we're so close to the issue that we are trying to apply cause/effect in what is essentially a micro-second to the Earth's history. I would say we have ZERO ability to discern the effect of Mankind's contribution at this point. We simply cannot see the forest for the trees.

Look closely at the chart in my post above. Look at years 430M ago, and 260M ago. The rate of warming in those two periods is nearly vertical! It warmed up incredibly FAST !!! (fast being a relative term to the Earth's history). You're not going to convince me that in 150 years we've done anything that Nature hasn't already experienced before.


What is clear is that Earth is going to warm up, and do so with relative quickness. We have ZERO ability to mitigate this phenomenon. None whatsoever. It is complete arrogance of Mankind to think we can stop, or even slow, this course.

Fossil fuels and global warming .... don't confuse the correation with causation.
 
Last edited:
dnewton3 said:
That's not an unfair criticism. I would counter with this ...
Do we have the infallable science today to claim with the utmost certainty either way; yes or no?
Just 40'ish years ago, then reknowned scientists were telling us we were heading into another ice age; that the Earth was going to be cooling drastically.

The Earth warms and cools over hundreds of thousands of years, and yet we're trying to define the "acceleration" of temps in real time.
Isn't that like trying to measure the velocity of a race car on lap 100, over the course of one second, and somehow try to predict the winner of the 200 lap race? My point is that we're so close to the issue that we are trying to apply cause/effect in what is essentially a micro-second to the Earth's history. I would say we have ZERO ability to discern the effect of Mankind's contribution at this point. We simply cannot see the forest for the trees.

Look closely at the chart in my post above. Look at years 430M ago, and 260M ago. The rate of warming in those two periods is nearly vertical! It warmed up incredibly FAST !!! (fast being a relative term to the Earth's history). You're not going to convince me that in 150 years we've done anything that Nature hasn't already experienced before.


What is clear is that Earth is going to warm up, and do so with relative quickness. We have ZERO ability to mitigate this phenomenon. None whatsoever. It is complete arrogance of Mankind to think we can stop, or even slow, this course.

Fossil fuels and global warming .... don't confuse the correation with causation.
Click to expand...
I would say that due to computer technology and scientific advancements, we can discern the difference. Others obviously are skeptical of that, which is not unreasonable either.
 
buster said:
I would say that due to computer technology and scientific advancements, we can discern the difference. Others obviously are skeptical of that, which is not unreasonable either.
Click to expand...
In high school geography class (1978), we had an awesome, very well-spoken instructor. A key point he taught on was Florida was going to run out of fresh water well before California and the southwest will. He predicted fresh water doom and gloom in a decade or so for Florida.

I loved this guy as a instructor and had a very positive impact on me. He was also my wrestling coach at age six, and my wrestling coach as a high school freshman. His Florida prediction left a lifelong impact on me" be careful on what educators are teaching". I have grown more cautious of educators as I age.

And I think this quote from Mohammad Ali is relevant "A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. – Muhammad Ali".
 
dnewton3 said:
Google "Earth Ice Age" and you'll get a lot of images, but this one below is as good as any other ...

EARTH IS COMING OUT OF IT'S 5th ICE AGE !!!!!
Of course it's warming. No sane person would say otherwise.

The questions are these:
- is this warming unprecedented?
- what is causing the warming?

Is this unprecedented?
NO!
Notice that the average Earth temps are lows around 50F, and highs around 75F. The Earth has been warming and cooling for more than two million years. This ain't news.

What is causing the warming?
Natural phenomenon in Earth's orbit over millenia, the Sun's effect on our atmosphere, the release of gases from natural causes (mainly volcanos), vapor changes in the atmosphere, etc ....
But here's what's clear:
Man didn't cause ANY of those 5 Ice Ages, and Man didn't cause any of the 4 preceeding warming periods. Why does anyone think that we're causing the current "warming" now??????

Man isn't that he's causing the warming period; Nature is!
Man is ignoring what Nature has been doing for 2.5 Million years BEFORE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION EVER HAPPENED.


Please explain to me how 150 years of fossil fuel use (the industrial revolution) is somehow the cause of "warming" now, when the Earth has a cyclical history of warming and cooling WAY, WAY BEFORE MAN EVER GOT HERE.


ice_ages1.gif
Click to expand...
The difference is the rate of warming which is hidden by the time period of your graph, rendering it irrelevant.
NASA: "There is unequivocal evidence that Earth is warming at an unprecedented rate. Human activity is the principal cause."

I am a data driven person. I am not sure the Mr. Moser presented relevant data.
Here is a discussion with Prof. Brian Cox.
 
Last edited:
Look, feelings on the shifting climate and who/what owns responsibility for that aside, this is the exact type of thread that would get deleted. Not locked, but deleted.

Before this gets much further, I think we give it the old mafia treatment and take care of the problem. Just, make it look like an accident. I don't need the fuzz on my tail.
 
buster said:
The resistance to the idea that humans have accelerated global temperatures baffles me.
Click to expand...

The question for me would be, is that bad?
We know that the earth was much, much warmer in the past, so even if we did accelerate the inevitable warming cycle, what is the harm in that? Isn't warmer weather and more CO2 in the air more desirable for plant life? More plant life equals richer ecosystems.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top