The return of the SuperTech oil filter at WalMart.

[GMBoy]

We really do pick apart details about oil filters here! None of us, that I am aware of, are oil filter engineers so perhaps some of our "reservations about a filter's design" are not really issues at all. I'm just saying that out loud because I thought oil filters have to flow and filter a specified number for any given application per the auto's specifications. I really doubt any filter maker puts "small holes" in their center tube to intentionally reduce oil flow and harm an engine. Furthermore nobody here, that I've seen, has run any "flow tests" to see what (if any) flow reduction any certain style filter center tube exhibits.

I think we really do overexamine everthing on here.....but I like that and we should continue to. I just wish we could stop condeming products solely on what the seat of the pants opinion is without any solid evidence. This forum is OUTSTANDING in keeping each other informed and EDUCATED. It works as long as opinions are backed by data.

 

[crazyoildude]

There are a few places the oil travels inside your engine that has restrictions the filter should not be one of them..If the oil holes look very small its because they are. I like to pick filters with the larger center tube oil holes. There will be lots of opinions on this but if you have 2 metal 5 gallon cans and you fill them with oil and on one you drill 20 small holes and the other you drill 20 slightly larger holes the one with the larger holes will leak the oil out faster even a 5 year old will know that. Then you wrote:
Also, maybe you do not want too much flow- for whatever reason! Maybe the filter company does not want to much flow because their filters tear when to much oil passes through. As for the engine owner everyone wants good flow with as little restriction as possible. Some restriction is needed to keep a prime in some engines

 

[crazyoildude]

robo i did not say $5000.00 fine i said it will cost about $5000.00 between court costs and Attorney fees and an expungement maybe more.

 

[bullwinkle]

Only way to know for sure on the holes is measure the area-if it's close to the area of the inlet holes, it won't matter.

 

[ccap41]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Unsealed boxes, yippee. Isn't the Fram Ultra's new white color great? I do like the American patriotism on the box. Factory certified, what ever that means, materials too?


Where did you see Fram changed their colors?

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Unsealed boxes, yippee. Isn't the Fram Ultra's new white color great? I do like the American patriotism on the box. Factory certified, what ever that means, materials too?
Where did you see Fram changed their colors?
He is suggesting that unscrupulous people will take a FRAM Ultra and put it in a ST box and pay $3.00 instead of $8.00...

 

[53' Stude]

Guys: I plan to grab one or two of these tomorrow and cut them open

.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
There are a few places the oil travels inside your engine that has restrictions the filter should not be one of them..If the oil holes look very small its because they are. I like to pick filters with the larger center tube oil holes. There will be lots of opinions on this but if you have 2 metal 5 gallon cans and you fill them with oil and on one you drill 20 small holes and the other you drill 20 slightly larger holes the one with the larger holes will leak the oil out faster even a 5 year old will know that.


Everyone knows it all depends on the total flow area of all the small holes/slits added up in the center tube - or base plate on the inlet side.

Remember you are dealing with a positive displacement oil pump in 99% of the cars on the road, so IF the center tube causes some added flow resistance, it probably only adds 1 PSI to the max delta-p across the filter at max flow. The engine isn't going to know any difference with that small of an added delta-p at the oil filter. The engine will still get the same volume of flow unless the engine was at redline all day and the oil pump was in pressure relief. Even then, 1 or 2 PSI of added delta-p isn't really going to change the flow much.

Of course, the exception to this rule is IF there was a lack of holes/slits, or the holes/slits were no big enough to start due to some kind of manufacturing problem. And if by some chance the flow was blocked quite a bit (due to a collapsed media, or fully clogged media), then again the oil pump would have to be in pressure relief for the reduced flow volume to the engine to be realizes. As the filter's flow resistance goes up, the closer the oil pump gets to pressure relief (ie, max output pressure).

 

[oilotaku]

good to know about these the last couple changes i've done myself i used purolators due to the made in usa and i thought they were good filters i will give these a go believe on the wifes car we had to track down a special order rather expensive ac delco...

 

[crazyoildude]

picture those little slits on the center tube with 10w30 on a zero degree morning... I almost wish i did not sell the engine shop with all these little slits being used inside oil filters instead of the nice big oil holes..
To each his own i stay away from the restrictolators

 

[akela]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Then you wrote:
Also, maybe you do not want too much flow- for whatever reason! Maybe the filter company does not want to much flow because their filters tear when to much oil passes through.

that makes sense to me. I imagine when it's cold enough and the oil is real thick, you can tear anything, even the best filtering media. So if the holes are carefully sized such that they restrict the cold oil enough to relieve the media from the excessive pressure, but don't play significant role when the oil is hot - this would be sensible.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Yes, we must remember there can usually (or always) be unforeseen circumstances.

Aircraft makers hire test pilots still, right?



An analogy for the flow of the centertube can be trested like this.


Ok, so an exhaust system can freeup power on a V8. Well, how about just removing the muffler, cutting the cats, or just running straight open headers.


No! It has to be TUNED. You have long tube headers going into a large collector with high flow cats, free flowing dual chambered mufflers and true dual special exhaust tips to complete the pipes.


I used to think just chopping off the muffler would be more effective than buying expensive headers and a cat-back.



Be careful withnwhat you believe. The devil can use logic, power, and science to beat us to death. We are armed with strength, mathematics and truth.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: akela
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Then you wrote:
Also, maybe you do not want too much flow- for whatever reason! Maybe the filter company does not want to much flow because their filters tear when to much oil passes through.

that makes sense to me. I imagine when it's cold enough and the oil is real thick, you can tear anything, even the best filtering media. So if the holes are carefully sized such that they restrict the cold oil enough to relieve the media from the excessive pressure, but don't play significant role when the oil is hot - this would be sensible.


That's what the oil pump's pressure relief valve and the filter's bypass valve are for. Oil filter designers don't "control oil flow" with the size of the holes/slits in the center tube. Designers ideally want the oil filter to be as free flowing as possible and still filter as efficient as possible.

If the oil is really thick because it's super cold outside, the flow is controlled when the oil pump goes into pressure relief. The pump creates much more oil pressure trying to force it through the tight engine bearings, and that causes the output pressure to increase until the oil pump's pressure relief valve starts to work.

Keep in mind that the engine's oiling system is about 15 times more restrictive to oil flow than the average oil filter.

There are a lot of people who don't really understand how an automotive oiling system works. It's not very complicated, but the missing piece I think most people don't grasp is the workings of positive displacement oil pump, and how it makes and controls the oil flow through the engine.

 

[akela]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
That's what the oil pump's pressure relief valve and the filter's bypass valve are for. Oil filter designers don't "control oil flow" with the size of the holes/slits in the center tube. Designers ideally want the oil filter to be as free flowing as possible and still filter as efficient as possible.

If the oil is really thick because it's super cold outside, the flow is controlled when the oil pump goes into pressure relief. The pump creates much more oil pressure trying to force it through the tight engine bearings, and that causes the output pressure to increase until the oil pump's pressure relief valve starts to work.

Keep in mind that the engine's oiling system is about 15 times more restrictive to oil flow than the average oil filter.

I understand that there are pressure relief valve and bypass valve; I just not sure whether they are guaranteed to be efficient enough for the "worst cases".
And I do know that the paper is not as strong as the metal. Rest of the system may be 15 times more restrictive, but 150 times more tolerant to the elevated pressure.

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There are a lot of people who don't really understand how an automotive oiling system works. It's not very complicated, but the missing piece I think most people don't grasp is the workings of positive displacement oil pump, and how it makes and controls the oil flow through the engine.

Definitely, it's not a rocket science. Not sure that the positive displacement needs to be referred to that often.

 

[andrewp1998]

Very depressing! hope the wix dont drop off in quality like the tearolators?


= sad wix fan

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: akela
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
That's what the oil pump's pressure relief valve and the filter's bypass valve are for. Oil filter designers don't "control oil flow" with the size of the holes/slits in the center tube. Designers ideally want the oil filter to be as free flowing as possible and still filter as efficient as possible.

If the oil is really thick because it's super cold outside, the flow is controlled when the oil pump goes into pressure relief. The pump creates much more oil pressure trying to force it through the tight engine bearings, and that causes the output pressure to increase until the oil pump's pressure relief valve starts to work.

Keep in mind that the engine's oiling system is about 15 times more restrictive to oil flow than the average oil filter.


I understand that there are pressure relief valve and bypass valve; I just not sure whether they are guaranteed to be efficient enough for the "worst cases".
And I do know that the paper is not as strong as the metal. Rest of the system may be 15 times more restrictive, but 150 times more tolerant to the elevated pressure.


If the pressure relief on the oil pump, and the bypass on the oil filter are designed correctly, then they should be able to take the "worse case" scenario all day long. IMO, an oil filter isn't designed correctly in terms of media and center tube strength if it can't handle delta-p at some factor above what the filter's bypass pressure is set to. In other words, if the bypass valve is set to 15 PSI, the filter should be able to take at least 25+ PSI of delta-p all day long without media or center tube failure.

Originally Posted By: akela
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There are a lot of people who don't really understand how an automotive oiling system works. It's not very complicated, but the missing piece I think most people don't grasp is the workings of positive displacement oil pump, and how it makes and controls the oil flow through the engine.

Definitely, it's not a rocket science. Not sure that the positive displacement needs to be referred to that often.


I think it does have to be mentioned, because how a positive displacement oil pump works and effects the oiling system is an important factor in these "filter flow restriction" discussions. Some guys think the oil flow is due to a constant pressure source like water flow from a garden hose ... but it's not. The only time the system acts like one fed from a constant pressure source is when the oil pump goes in to pressure relief - which is not very often. If the pump isn't in pressure relief, then 100% of the flow from the pump is going through the filter and the engine, even if Filter A is just a little more restrictive than Filter B. That's why engineers can't really control the flow in an engine by trying to restrict the holes in the center tube, unless those holes were almost closed off completely which would force the oil pump to hit pressure relief at a very low flow rate.

 

[dlundblad]

Best example being various filters with various bypass settings spec'd for the same application.

 

[Sayjac]

It's good that one or two of the new ST's is going to be posted to satisfy curiosity. That said, not my 'general preference' to see unused filters cut, seems a bit wasteful. But, that's just me. At least the new ST not expensive.

And I'd be willing to go out on not much of a limb to say, the new ST will be the same as previously posted Wix 'made for' MicroGard (ProSelect/Silver). The MGL 51393 and the MGL51522 are two such examples. The MGL even spec the same efficiency rating as new ST.

It will also be good to see them posted imo, so the off topic discussion of centertube holes versus louvers can be put to rest at least for the new ST. Even 'if' the ST did use a louvered design (not seen in Wix made to this point), as noted louvers have been used by Champ/(Fram Filt.) and Clarcor/Baldwin/Hastings for quite some time. It's just a preference for use of one type of design over another. And imo, it's the difference between trusting engineered science over a non scientific preoccupation with appearance. The latter of which reads more like tin foil hat fodder to me. As long as centertube is stamped as designed/engineered, they will flow just fine in pc use. Much ado about nothing.

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
......Keep in mind that the engine's oiling system is about 15 times more restrictive to oil flow than the average oil filter.....
Yep, I do. Science! Would make a good sticky on this subforum imo.

 

[goodtimes]

Hastings says the louvers flow more than their standard holes. Champ Labs, on their website claims the e-core introduces fewer contaminants into the oil stream due to the construction. That's my issue with louvers, and poorly punched holes too, steel particles from the burrs. Companies say nothing about the cleanliness of the filters they sell. Even if the center tube is washed very clean, under oil flow in the engine, which flows very fast through the holes, I can see steel particles coming off rough edges and going to the bearings unfiltered. Plastic center tubes would be better IMO. Unless the plastic breaks.

 

[WellOiled]

I submit the size, number and type of holes in the center tube relate to how the filter designer wants the oil to flow through the media. If you have a few small holes then media closest to the hole will fill with dirt first and potentially may block the hole.

The eCore has the most open area for the filter media to flow oil into the center tube. Many louvers and many large holes would be next. A few small holes would be last in this respect.

When you look at the center tube as a drainage network for the media, then it begins to make sense to me.

On one of my cut & posts of an unused filter, I calculated the surface area of the center tube holes and it exceeded the area of the nipple we put the filter on. The nipple would then be more restrictive than the holes in the center tube.