The more I read, the more confused I become

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Yes, and you are aware of this.

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

Saul Alinsky
 
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Not by my barometer. You've more than once said how you want to leave senior citizens without medical and financial benefits. I'll leave the welfare types that we don't have jobs for anyway ..but I can understand the popularity of that aspect of the UNDENIABLE overtones of just about everything you post.
 
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you want to leave senior citizens without medical and financial benefits.

I don't want other people to be forced to pay for those "entitlements"...as I have explained many times. You in fact DO want to force other people to pay for their benefits.

"But America is the richest country on the earth so we should be able to pay for it."

Well, if you would actually look at the numbers, no we can't. SS and medicare are $100 trillion in the red. So your entire assumption is incorrect. Unless of course you have some plan to come up with $100 trillion without simply printing it?
 
Originally Posted By: Win


Of course truth exists.

Take a look at the second paragraph of The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America a/k/a Declaration of Independence, for a cogent recitation of some of the more important ones.

The idea that reality is subject to perception can certainly lead to confusion. It does make my job easier that people can be bamboozled that way.


How do you substantiate your truth - any truth? When you go looking for substantiation you find that the trail leads.....no where.... other than what you (or someone you believe) finds convenient to believe.

Yes, you can find frameworks that work. But there is no reason to distinguish them from other frameworks that used to work, right up to the point when they did not.

However, I will agree that principles of free agentry, non-interference, etc are very high on what I personally consider to be the natural order of things.

I believe that any model which is found to work well at multiple levels in nature tends to be true. But I can't discount the idea that more knowledge about how those natural models are constituted won't blow holes in my belief system.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: GROUCHO MARX
I think it's as simple as this: When non-producers or under producers are rewarded through the efforts of the producers over a long period of time, you're eventually screwed.


Funny, but that works at BOTH ends of the income scale.

I like it.


Absolutely, the paper pushers on Wall Street were well overcompensated.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
I see that the smear campain continues...
smirk2.gif



in violation of forum rules. Report it and the posts will be deleted. But be prepared to go totally clean, yourself.
 
Originally Posted By: TooManyWheels
Define "complete".

You chose the word. While you are chasing your tail, I will go about my business.

You said: "But I can't discount the idea that more knowledge about how those natural models are constituted won't blow holes in my belief system."
That sounds very wide open...if not complete. How about substantially complete?
 
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I don't want other people to be forced to pay for those "entitlements"...as I have explained many times. You in fact DO want to force other people to pay for their benefits.


Not quite. I accept that there are and will be needs ..and that they have to be satisfied in one form or another. You can either proactively cope with them in reluctance ..or negligently deal with them in despair (and probably not in the way you prefer that they manifest themselves).

You don't offer sensible solutions. You offer escape plans after the other shoe has dropped.
 
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Not quite. I accept that there are and will be needs

Who will pay for these needs? I has to be other people's money...which will has run out.
 
..and who spent it? Who profited off of it?

You're blind to the benefit that's been TAKEN ALREADY by the money that's been paid into the system.

I'll try and do this pony style ..but this too will evaporate in your "fever" throws.

The scam has fleeced all of us for the benefit of many. Now that the herd is producing too little yield, you want to cull the herd. Now when they were fat and had plenty to pluck ..let the sharks at them. Now that the elite are finding slim pickings ..and the society is NOW needing ..and aren't worth stealing more from, it's time to kick them to the curb.

You have to pay for your mistakes Tempest. You don't go out and spend your money foolishly and then get to just ignore the consequences.

You were surely silent until the bills came due. Now you want to perform a moral "bankruptcy" after you've scavenged all the worth from the harvest.

..or were you laughing saying, "Ha..the fools ..they don't know that I'm going to duck out on the bill for the party that I've lived all of my life under
LOL.gif
".
 
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The scam has fleeced all of us for the benefit of many.

You now admit that these programs are scams and yet you want to continue them? I don't understand the logic. The fact that people have been scammed doesn't change that other people's money will have to go to support the continuing scam.

The people that have been scammed are the one's that voted in the people that allowed these things to happen. They are the one's that should pay the price.

Expecting people that aren't even born yet to shoulder the burden of the gain by generations before them is morally bankrupt and is indentured servitude.

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"I sincerely believe... that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson


And to add:
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The utopian schemes of leveling and a community of goods, are as visionary and impractical as those which vest all property in the crown. These ideas are arbitrary,despotic, and, in our government unconstitutional.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bahowLs...result&resnum=9
 
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You now admit that these programs are scams and yet you want to continue them?


That's not how I would characterize it. I'd say that a lot of pockets were filled with the booty ..and now that the harvest is coming to an end, the thieves who enjoyed the party ..right along side those being fleeced, want to ditch the spent and used up party hall ..because the clean up bill is coming due.

That's YOU and those who you appear to want to hold in the highest esteem. The ones, that if properly liberated, will pour down bounty in untold volumes ...cascading prosperity in virtual liquid form.

DOOD ..you can't see the full circle deal, can you?

You're obviously someone who will watch a scam go down ..party it up when the fun is working ..then when the side effects come due ..do everything you can to skip out.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest

You said: "But I can't discount the idea that more knowledge about how those natural models are constituted won't blow holes in my belief system."
That sounds very wide open...if not complete. How about substantially complete?


In my mind, I am just recognizing that beliefs are a result of the intersection of a place in time, people, and problems to be solved. At one time people believed that: weather was caused by angry supreme beings, the earth was flat, they believed in Newtonian physics, you can go on and on. They had these beliefs because they proved adequate, for a while. But when new factors enter the equation, as they often do, the old beliefs don't necessarily work anymore, providing the drive for finding new theories.

I'm admitting that, while my theories are adequate for myself, at this point in time, with the problems I see, that can change. I don't believe that I have all the right ideas to change the world, nor that I am personally responsible for doing so.

I see problems as evidence of insufficient solutions. If the solutions were adequate, the problems would never have been noticed as problems, just events, if they were noticed at all.

The process of people interacting in society, using their respective opinions, points of view, etc, will lead to solutions of problems. It won't be without conflict, but in the end we will all own it. We always own what we have, like it or not.

In the end, my belief in this process of how problems will be resolved is stronger than my belief in any categorized ideology. Again, I don't see that I am personally responsible for determining "truth", or inflicting it on the world.
 
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You're obviously someone who will watch a scam go down ..party it up when the fun is working ..then when the side effects come due ..do everything you can to skip out.

Uhhh...I have never taken money out of the SS or Medicare scams. In fact, I can't because I'm not old enough (and won't be for some time). So I've only been forced to pay into it... So I'm not sure how you think I am having a party with the scam?
 
TooManyWheels, interesting post. The question is whether things like murder, theft, assault, self defense, free speech etc. are relativistic. Our Founding Father's considered these rights (to and from) to be inalienable and self evident. It is very apparent in the documents they penned.

If one considers these things relative and mutable, then it undercuts the very foundation and principles that our country was founded on. And there are plenty of people that are more than happy to capitalize on this...
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
TooManyWheels, interesting post. The question is whether things like murder, theft, assault, self defense, free speech etc. are relativistic. Our Founding Father's considered these rights (to and from) to be inalienable and self evident. It is very apparent in the documents they penned.

If one considers these things relative and mutable, then it undercuts the very foundation and principles that our country was founded on. And there are plenty of people that are more than happy to capitalize on this...


The devil is in the definitions and assumptions. When considered in the abstract, those things are like Mom and apple pie, everyone is for them. But then you get down to the nitty gritty. For example - Is murdering someone for murdering someone else technically a murder? Or is that society's self defense?

Real people have to make those distinctions, and they make them on the basis of their belief systems. So what started out at as absolute got relative very quickly.

My idea of truth is this - We are all in this life together, and it isn't easy. Our goal is to find a way to maximize the well being of all. We all have different talents and points of view, I look at them as pieces to the puzzle. It should be possible to find a way to work together in good faith to put that puzzle together so that we all benefit. This part I consider absolute truth.

Now, how to accomplish all that is up to individual interpretation, i.e. relative....
 
TMW would have fit in well as one of the high priests of the Mayans, when they started deciding it would be a good thing to behead a hundred thousand or so of the nearby locals to appease the Sun god during drought. I mean, it's all relative.
 
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Uhhh...I have never taken money out of the SS or Medicare scams.


YES. YOU HAVE. If you have any belief in "trickle down" beyond it being some nifty con job slogan, then you cannot have avoided all of that SS money that was pumped into the economy when the fund was in surplus. Nor could you possibly escape benefiting from the Medicare revenues that were collected and redistributed into the economy.

It's just "borrow and spend and tax cuts" in a way you never realized. The same impacts and liabilities are showing up.

You've been on a trip to Pleasure Island, my friend. Now it's time for the trip to the salt mines.
 
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