ATF just thins out the oil, and dilutes deposits that way. Rather why not "clean" out some dirty old abused thing with some actual engine oil that is thin like 5W20. Keep your foot out of it and watch how much faster thin oil gets dirty than the specified thickness oil.
The highly debated ATF engine flush...
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Originally Posted By: StevieC
Flush the fuel system?
Adding lubricant / cleaner to gasoline is a great idea especially on vintage carbureted engines. Why do people hate the idea so much?
Valve guides get lubricated (especially intake guides). Mechanical fuel pump diaphragms last forever with lube in the fuel. So do "rubber" (or whatever they're made of) parts and diaphragms in carburetors and you never see throttle shaft bushings wear on carburetors running lube in the fuel.
"The engineers designed those internal engine parts to get lubricated "enough" without adding anything" Maybe, but there is PRECIOUS LITTLE lubrication that makes it past the upper piston ring and down the valve guides and gasoline today is incredibly "dry" with added ethanol. Cold starting with lube in the gasoline means instant lubrication to the upper cylinder.
I'd stick with TCW3 or MMO in the gas tank and MMO in the crankcase. ATF will clean, but it also has friction modifiers and who knows what else in it that I wouldn't want in an engine.
Flush the fuel system?
Adding lubricant / cleaner to gasoline is a great idea especially on vintage carbureted engines. Why do people hate the idea so much?
Valve guides get lubricated (especially intake guides). Mechanical fuel pump diaphragms last forever with lube in the fuel. So do "rubber" (or whatever they're made of) parts and diaphragms in carburetors and you never see throttle shaft bushings wear on carburetors running lube in the fuel.
"The engineers designed those internal engine parts to get lubricated "enough" without adding anything" Maybe, but there is PRECIOUS LITTLE lubrication that makes it past the upper piston ring and down the valve guides and gasoline today is incredibly "dry" with added ethanol. Cold starting with lube in the gasoline means instant lubrication to the upper cylinder.
I'd stick with TCW3 or MMO in the gas tank and MMO in the crankcase. ATF will clean, but it also has friction modifiers and who knows what else in it that I wouldn't want in an engine.
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Well there is that word hate again. I don't think it is hate, it's that despite all the things you list below most people apparently get by just fine without adding anything to the gasoline. In my case and for my engines, I've never added anything to my gas and yet despite that I've gotten all the miles I now have. How is that possible if everything is indeed getting "PRECIOUS LITTLE" lubrication? All we have ever had here in southeastern Wisconsin is E10, so shouldn't my engines be worn out by now?
I think people imagine that this is beneficial but what proof is there that it is?
Originally Posted By: Scdevon
Adding lubricant / cleaner to gasoline is a great idea especially on vintage carbureted engines. Why do people hate the idea so much?
Valve guides get lubricated (especially intake guides). Mechanical fuel pump diaphragms last forever with lube in the fuel. So do "rubber" (or whatever they're made of) parts and diaphragms in carburetors and you never see throttle shaft bushings wear on carburetors running lube in the fuel.
"The engineers designed those internal engine parts to get lubricated "enough" without adding anything" Maybe, but there is PRECIOUS LITTLE lubrication that makes it past the upper piston ring and down the valve guides and gasoline today is incredibly "dry" with added ethanol. Cold starting with lube in the gasoline means instant lubrication to the upper cylinder.
I'd stick with TCW3 or MMO in the gas tank and MMO in the crankcase. ATF will clean, but it also has friction modifiers and who knows what else in it that I wouldn't want in an engine.
I think people imagine that this is beneficial but what proof is there that it is?
Originally Posted By: Scdevon
Adding lubricant / cleaner to gasoline is a great idea especially on vintage carbureted engines. Why do people hate the idea so much?
Valve guides get lubricated (especially intake guides). Mechanical fuel pump diaphragms last forever with lube in the fuel. So do "rubber" (or whatever they're made of) parts and diaphragms in carburetors and you never see throttle shaft bushings wear on carburetors running lube in the fuel.
"The engineers designed those internal engine parts to get lubricated "enough" without adding anything" Maybe, but there is PRECIOUS LITTLE lubrication that makes it past the upper piston ring and down the valve guides and gasoline today is incredibly "dry" with added ethanol. Cold starting with lube in the gasoline means instant lubrication to the upper cylinder.
I'd stick with TCW3 or MMO in the gas tank and MMO in the crankcase. ATF will clean, but it also has friction modifiers and who knows what else in it that I wouldn't want in an engine.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I think people imagine that this is beneficial but what proof is there that it is?
Just because engines don't fail from not doing something doesn't mean that an engine can't benefit FROM doing something.
As good as people think their stuff runs from not doing anything, maybe an engine could perform even better and last longer by adding cleaners and lubricants. It's widely accepted that upper cylinder lube improves compression numbers and reduces even microscopic upper cylinder wear that people think is "doing just fine" without adding anything to anything.
People tend bring up engines known for superior engineering and long life when they talk about engines that never get anything special done to them (Ford 4.6 / GM 5.3) living almost forever like police and fleet vehicles that rarely get cold started and operate at constant temperatures most of their life.
Upper cylinder lube is a very big deal to an engine that gets cold started regularly.
I think people imagine that this is beneficial but what proof is there that it is?
Just because engines don't fail from not doing something doesn't mean that an engine can't benefit FROM doing something.
As good as people think their stuff runs from not doing anything, maybe an engine could perform even better and last longer by adding cleaners and lubricants. It's widely accepted that upper cylinder lube improves compression numbers and reduces even microscopic upper cylinder wear that people think is "doing just fine" without adding anything to anything.
People tend bring up engines known for superior engineering and long life when they talk about engines that never get anything special done to them (Ford 4.6 / GM 5.3) living almost forever like police and fleet vehicles that rarely get cold started and operate at constant temperatures most of their life.
Upper cylinder lube is a very big deal to an engine that gets cold started regularly.
Originally Posted By: Scdevon
Just because engines don't fail from not doing something doesn't mean that an engine can't benefit FROM doing something.
As good as people think their stuff runs from not doing anything, maybe an engine could perform even better and last longer by adding cleaners and lubricants. It's widely accepted that upper cylinder lube improves compression numbers and reduces even microscopic upper cylinder wear that people think is "doing just fine" without adding anything to anything.
People tend bring up engines known for superior engineering and long life when they talk about engines that never get anything special done to them (Ford 4.6 / GM 5.3) living almost forever like police and fleet vehicles that rarely get cold started and operate at constant temperatures most of their life.
Upper cylinder lube is a very big deal to an engine that gets cold started regularly.
Correct, but at the same time just because people imagine that an engine needs something (and they subsequently do that) doesn't mean it ever needed it in the first place. You think my engines would last longer if I used cleaners and lubricants in the fuel?
I'd also completely disagree that UCL is a "very big deal" for engines that get cold and are started regularly, I live in the upper Midwest and mine are started multiple times in one day, and half the year it is "cold" here. In the depths of winter it can get down to -25F.
I guess I'm still a little unsure what it is in the UC that isn't getting L now and needs an additional UCL, and how I would get more life if I used it.
Just because engines don't fail from not doing something doesn't mean that an engine can't benefit FROM doing something.
As good as people think their stuff runs from not doing anything, maybe an engine could perform even better and last longer by adding cleaners and lubricants. It's widely accepted that upper cylinder lube improves compression numbers and reduces even microscopic upper cylinder wear that people think is "doing just fine" without adding anything to anything.
People tend bring up engines known for superior engineering and long life when they talk about engines that never get anything special done to them (Ford 4.6 / GM 5.3) living almost forever like police and fleet vehicles that rarely get cold started and operate at constant temperatures most of their life.
Upper cylinder lube is a very big deal to an engine that gets cold started regularly.
Correct, but at the same time just because people imagine that an engine needs something (and they subsequently do that) doesn't mean it ever needed it in the first place. You think my engines would last longer if I used cleaners and lubricants in the fuel?
I'd also completely disagree that UCL is a "very big deal" for engines that get cold and are started regularly, I live in the upper Midwest and mine are started multiple times in one day, and half the year it is "cold" here. In the depths of winter it can get down to -25F.
I guess I'm still a little unsure what it is in the UC that isn't getting L now and needs an additional UCL, and how I would get more life if I used it.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You think my engines would last longer if I used cleaners and lubricants in the fuel?
In the depths of winter it can get down to -25F.
Yeah, I do think that, actually. I live in Wyoming, so I know what cold is also. Before that, I lived in the northeast.
If you're bragging that you've never used anything and never had a problem, then OK I guess.
As well as you think your cars run without it UCL, how do you know that you couldn't get an extra 1 MPG on those high mileage engines if what little UC wear you have was even less? Maybe your piston ring gaps would be .002 smaller if the engines had been run with UCL from day one. Are you saying that UCL and lubrication in general is a bad thing and that it's actually harmful?
I'm absolutely convinced that lube in gasoline lubricates fuel pumps, prevents corrosion from ethanol and makes "rubber" parts last longer in older carbureted fuel systems. My carburetors never get worn throttle shafts even in my manual transmission cars. Are you saying that running oil in the gas is actually worthless or harming my throttle shaft bushings or that it's deteriorating rubber parts instead of preserving them and keeping them supple?
You have lots of miles on those perfect little Japanese engines in your signature. Probably lots of highway miles. Get back to me when those engines get cold started in minus -25 F and get driven 2 miles to someone's place of work and get shut back off again over 10 or 15 years.
You think my engines would last longer if I used cleaners and lubricants in the fuel?
In the depths of winter it can get down to -25F.
Yeah, I do think that, actually. I live in Wyoming, so I know what cold is also. Before that, I lived in the northeast.
If you're bragging that you've never used anything and never had a problem, then OK I guess.
As well as you think your cars run without it UCL, how do you know that you couldn't get an extra 1 MPG on those high mileage engines if what little UC wear you have was even less? Maybe your piston ring gaps would be .002 smaller if the engines had been run with UCL from day one. Are you saying that UCL and lubrication in general is a bad thing and that it's actually harmful?
I'm absolutely convinced that lube in gasoline lubricates fuel pumps, prevents corrosion from ethanol and makes "rubber" parts last longer in older carbureted fuel systems. My carburetors never get worn throttle shafts even in my manual transmission cars. Are you saying that running oil in the gas is actually worthless or harming my throttle shaft bushings or that it's deteriorating rubber parts instead of preserving them and keeping them supple?
You have lots of miles on those perfect little Japanese engines in your signature. Probably lots of highway miles. Get back to me when those engines get cold started in minus -25 F and get driven 2 miles to someone's place of work and get shut back off again over 10 or 15 years.
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I'm hardly bragging, I am just stating what my experience is and has been for many years.
I don't know if they would get 1 MPG more but at the same time you don't know that your vehicles do either. It is not possible to determine a 1 MPG difference in real-world driving and then be able to ascribe it to one variable. That's the problem with all additives of any sort, the gains that they claim are buried in the large noise band of everyday driving. Did I ever say it was harmful? Not that I recall. If I did then I shouldn't have said that as I don't think it is - but please don't make up things because I disagree with you on your unsubstantiated claims.
I can tell you though that the fuel pumps on none of my cars would be lubricated by the addition of the UCL as the bearings are sealed. I've only had to change the pump on my BMW, the rest are original. I don't think they are deficient in that regard either. As for throttle shaft bushings, all my cars have fuel injection so I don't think that applies.
And "perfect little Japanese engines"? How's that? Is there some defect in your engines that the UCL is compensating for? To answer your question though the ECHO is predominately highway miles but my old Sienna has been almost exclusively stop-and-go, as has the Accord. The BMW gets whatever gets thrown at it. I especially don't think the 1MZ-FE in the Sienna would be called "perfect" by anyone.
Once again I just think the all the benefits you claim are imagined since I don't see the failures you allude. My fuel lines are all original and seem "supple" enough. I don't see corrosion due to E10 but maybe some automobiles have inferior components that do see those problems.
We'll just have to disagree on this one I guess as it seems to be a contentious issue with you when someone disagrees.
Originally Posted By: Scdevon
Yeah, I do think that, actually. I live in Wyoming, so I know what cold is also. Before that, I lived in the northeast.
If you're bragging that you've never used anything and never had a problem, then OK I guess.
As well as you think your cars run without it UCL, how do you know that you couldn't get an extra 1 MPG on those high mileage engines if what little UC wear you have was even less? Maybe your piston ring gaps would be .002 smaller if the engines had been run with UCL from day one. Are you saying that UCL and lubrication in general is a bad thing and that it's actually harmful?
I'm absolutely convinced that lube in gasoline lubricates fuel pumps, prevents corrosion from ethanol and makes "rubber" parts last longer in older carbureted fuel systems. My carburetors never get worn throttle shafts even in my manual transmission cars. Are you saying that running oil in the gas is actually worthless or harming my throttle shaft bushings or that it's deteriorating rubber parts instead of preserving them and keeping them supple?
You have lots of miles on those perfect little Japanese engines in your signature. Probably lots of highway miles. Get back to me when those engines get cold started in minus -25 F and get driven 2 miles to someone's place of work and get shut back off again over 10 or 15 years.
I don't know if they would get 1 MPG more but at the same time you don't know that your vehicles do either. It is not possible to determine a 1 MPG difference in real-world driving and then be able to ascribe it to one variable. That's the problem with all additives of any sort, the gains that they claim are buried in the large noise band of everyday driving. Did I ever say it was harmful? Not that I recall. If I did then I shouldn't have said that as I don't think it is - but please don't make up things because I disagree with you on your unsubstantiated claims.
I can tell you though that the fuel pumps on none of my cars would be lubricated by the addition of the UCL as the bearings are sealed. I've only had to change the pump on my BMW, the rest are original. I don't think they are deficient in that regard either. As for throttle shaft bushings, all my cars have fuel injection so I don't think that applies.
And "perfect little Japanese engines"? How's that? Is there some defect in your engines that the UCL is compensating for? To answer your question though the ECHO is predominately highway miles but my old Sienna has been almost exclusively stop-and-go, as has the Accord. The BMW gets whatever gets thrown at it. I especially don't think the 1MZ-FE in the Sienna would be called "perfect" by anyone.
Once again I just think the all the benefits you claim are imagined since I don't see the failures you allude. My fuel lines are all original and seem "supple" enough. I don't see corrosion due to E10 but maybe some automobiles have inferior components that do see those problems.
We'll just have to disagree on this one I guess as it seems to be a contentious issue with you when someone disagrees.
Originally Posted By: Scdevon
Yeah, I do think that, actually. I live in Wyoming, so I know what cold is also. Before that, I lived in the northeast.
If you're bragging that you've never used anything and never had a problem, then OK I guess.
As well as you think your cars run without it UCL, how do you know that you couldn't get an extra 1 MPG on those high mileage engines if what little UC wear you have was even less? Maybe your piston ring gaps would be .002 smaller if the engines had been run with UCL from day one. Are you saying that UCL and lubrication in general is a bad thing and that it's actually harmful?
I'm absolutely convinced that lube in gasoline lubricates fuel pumps, prevents corrosion from ethanol and makes "rubber" parts last longer in older carbureted fuel systems. My carburetors never get worn throttle shafts even in my manual transmission cars. Are you saying that running oil in the gas is actually worthless or harming my throttle shaft bushings or that it's deteriorating rubber parts instead of preserving them and keeping them supple?
You have lots of miles on those perfect little Japanese engines in your signature. Probably lots of highway miles. Get back to me when those engines get cold started in minus -25 F and get driven 2 miles to someone's place of work and get shut back off again over 10 or 15 years.
Carburetors are made out of aluminum and can be corroded by ethanol. Aluminum alloys are not inferior materials, they just are what they are in the industry and carburetors are still being produced by the millions every year for off road applications. It isn't as if carbureted engines are strictly in museum exhibits these days.
The gears in your electric fuel pump that produce the pressure are not sealed. The only "lubrication" the gears get is from dry gasoline with alcohol.
The engineers at BMW or any other company could honestly care less if you get 65,000 miles out of a fuel pump or 400,000 miles out of it.
Stainless steel can corrode too unless it's pristine top quality. "Stainless" is a relative term. Not that any of this is a life or death matter and a failed fuel pump is about a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10 in car repair terms. . My mind just runs cooler if I have lube in my fuel.
Each their own which is how most of these debates end anyhow.
The gears in your electric fuel pump that produce the pressure are not sealed. The only "lubrication" the gears get is from dry gasoline with alcohol.
The engineers at BMW or any other company could honestly care less if you get 65,000 miles out of a fuel pump or 400,000 miles out of it.
Stainless steel can corrode too unless it's pristine top quality. "Stainless" is a relative term. Not that any of this is a life or death matter and a failed fuel pump is about a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10 in car repair terms. . My mind just runs cooler if I have lube in my fuel.
Each their own which is how most of these debates end anyhow.
Originally Posted By: Scdevon
My carburetors never get worn throttle shafts even in my manual transmission cars. Are you saying that running oil in the gas is actually worthless or harming my throttle shaft bushings or that it's deteriorating rubber parts instead of preserving them and keeping them supple?
Although chainsaws are using mix of gasoline and oil (in far greater % than your cars)...they are still not imune against worn throttle shaft bushings...
My carburetors never get worn throttle shafts even in my manual transmission cars. Are you saying that running oil in the gas is actually worthless or harming my throttle shaft bushings or that it's deteriorating rubber parts instead of preserving them and keeping them supple?
Although chainsaws are using mix of gasoline and oil (in far greater % than your cars)...they are still not imune against worn throttle shaft bushings...
Originally Posted By: NoNameJoe
The R18 engines in these models run super clean as it is and they're really easy on oils. I've yet to see an R18 opened up that wasn't spotless.
On a well-running, well-maintained 2012 you did a pretty risky experiment. It's not as bad as running the engine with water or running it dry, but it's still not as good as running it with API SN oil. You have no idea what damage it could have done.
What was the point of this? To risk damaging a well-running, well-maintained engine to clean up what exactly? The color change means nothing also. If you were really that intent on cleaning it, should have just done multiple short OCI's, even though that's pointless on an engine as easy on oil as this.
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Back in the sixty and seventy,s a lot of folks would substitute a qt of oil with a qt of atf. Their logic was you never would see a dirty or sludge trans.
Their "logic" is absolute idiocy, makes about as much sense as if someone's shirt is green, it must be made of grass. Jokers like that have no business anywhere near an engine.
100% in agreement with you
The R18 engines in these models run super clean as it is and they're really easy on oils. I've yet to see an R18 opened up that wasn't spotless.
On a well-running, well-maintained 2012 you did a pretty risky experiment. It's not as bad as running the engine with water or running it dry, but it's still not as good as running it with API SN oil. You have no idea what damage it could have done.
What was the point of this? To risk damaging a well-running, well-maintained engine to clean up what exactly? The color change means nothing also. If you were really that intent on cleaning it, should have just done multiple short OCI's, even though that's pointless on an engine as easy on oil as this.
Quote:
Back in the sixty and seventy,s a lot of folks would substitute a qt of oil with a qt of atf. Their logic was you never would see a dirty or sludge trans.
Their "logic" is absolute idiocy, makes about as much sense as if someone's shirt is green, it must be made of grass. Jokers like that have no business anywhere near an engine.
100% in agreement with you
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I was not aware this debate wans't over for some. It was decided long ago on BITOG that ATF didn't have the cleaning ABILITY to help CLEAN an engine as good as standard engine oil. eD
This^^.
I was not aware this debate wans't over for some. It was decided long ago on BITOG that ATF didn't have the cleaning ABILITY to help CLEAN an engine as good as standard engine oil. eD
This^^.
Does/would ATF foam up getting sloshed around with oil?
Either way, I saw some of the debris that came out and it was only a 20 minute run (Filtered through a clean white t-shirt folded over several times). I highly doubt this flush did any harm but you all have convinced me the ATF is pretty much no help with the cleaning.
I will stick with the occasionally hot summer run of HDEO in the 10w30 flavor with 20% MMO for around 3-5K. That regiment kept my previous Subaru internals spotless for years.
I will stick with the occasionally hot summer run of HDEO in the 10w30 flavor with 20% MMO for around 3-5K. That regiment kept my previous Subaru internals spotless for years.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Does/would ATF foam up getting sloshed around with oil?
I saw no evidence of that but then again, it was only 20 minutes tops.
Does/would ATF foam up getting sloshed around with oil?
I saw no evidence of that but then again, it was only 20 minutes tops.
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