The Great Generational Divide

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Oil and Filter changes every 6 months or 5K miles whichever comes first. Use the OEM recommended oil and filters. Run nothing but top tier fuels (currently shell 93). Do not waste any money on UOAs. Use it for the oil and filters. Ignore advice to the contrary. Have not had any issues and don't expect any.
 
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So far 153k miles on my daily driver 2008 Cadillac CTS 3.6DI. No problems except timing chains were replaced under warranty around 50k miles and we all know that was a common occurrence on these motors. According to UOA's I don't have fuel dilution or any other issues but I still choose to keep my OCI between 5-6k miles mainly for the timing chains and actuators - they require good clean oil. I used Mobil 1 up to about 60k miles and switched to Mobil 1 EP and then, at 125k miles I switched to Mobil 1 High Mileage and will stick with that here on out.

Here is what I do that works for me:

Oil changes 5-6k miles and just before each oil change I spray an entire can of CRC DI intake Valve cleaner thru it.

I think the concerns mentioned are worth discussion but also there are hundreds of thousands of these motors running around with no issues and they are fine. The early DI motors, especially Audi, were very problematic with deposits but later designs like from GM, Ford and Mazda seem to be pretty much problem free and they have been around long enough that there are plenty of high mileage examples going strong still.
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
So far 153k miles on my daily driver 2008 Cadillac CTS 3.6DI. No problems except timing chains were replaced under warranty around 50k miles and we all know that was a common occurrence on these motors. According to UOA's I don't have fuel dilution or any other issues but I still choose to keep my OCI between 5-6k miles mainly for the timing chains and actuators - they require good clean oil. I used Mobil 1 up to about 60k miles and switched to Mobil 1 EP and then, at 125k miles I switched to Mobil 1 High Mileage and will stick with that here on out.

Here is what I do that works for me:

Oil changes 5-6k miles and just before each oil change I spray an entire can of CRC DI intake Valve cleaner thru it.

I think the concerns mentioned are worth discussion but also there are hundreds of thousands of these motors running around with no issues and they are fine. The early DI motors, especially Audi, were very problematic with deposits but later designs like from GM, Ford and Mazda seem to be pretty much problem free and they have been around long enough that there are plenty of high mileage examples going strong still.


I assume the timing chain was replaced with an updated/newer one? I know my wife's 3.6 in her Impala is the newer version (LFX) than likely yours, and although I never personally read it, my wife mentioned to me, from the manual, that it states never to run any type of fuel additives/cleaners in this engine? Any idea if she read that wrong? I'll try and find it myself but I am curious what others have to say about this?

Also, after reading this great post, I am now wondering if I did the right thing by going out and purchasing a stock pile of PUP Dexos-1 oil instead of waiting until the D-1-G2 oils were available?
I likely have enough oil now for the next 2-3 oil changes, which will likely last me 2+ years, but I will now be wondering, until it is used up, if did the right thing?

I also don't plan on going over 8,000 km's (5,000 miles) and in all honesty, the OCI's will likely be done much sooner than that depending how the season's line up?
I'm likely being paranoid and anal, but I like knowing I have the best possible oils in my vehicles if I can help it.
 
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Originally Posted By: KL31


I also wonder as Bigj16 has, if Low Speed Pre Ignition results due to so much fuel in the oil. Makes sense to me, flash point reduced and fuel present increases chance of pre ignition.


Could be. OTOH, fuel enrichment is used as an antidote to "traditional" detonation, and it appears that at least some LSPI conditions involve detonation.

The oil is, however, relatively low octane. I wonder if fuel thinning of the oil (along with high boost pressures) is allowing more oil to enter the combustion chamber, where it promotes detonation.
 
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: KL31


I also wonder as Bigj16 has, if Low Speed Pre Ignition results due to so much fuel in the oil. Makes sense to me, flash point reduced and fuel present increases chance of pre ignition.


Could be. OTOH, fuel enrichment is used as an antidote to "traditional" detonation, and it appears that at least some LSPI conditions involve detonation.

The oil is, however, relatively low octane. I wonder if fuel thinning of the oil (along with high boost pressures) is allowing more oil to enter the combustion chamber, where it promotes detonation.


There's an interesting hypotheses.
 
What say you about these viscosity numbers after using the M1 AFE 0W-20 for 30,000 miles (in Mazda3 Skyactiv) on the microGreen protocol?

SUS visc at 210F - 56.5

cSt visc @ 100C - 9.2
 
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
What say you about these viscosity numbers after using the M1 AFE 0W-20 for 30,000 miles (in Mazda3 Skyactiv) on the microGreen protocol?

SUS visc at 210F - 56.5

cSt visc @ 100C - 9.2


If was really 0w-20 I'd say shearing and dilution has been overtaken by oxidation. Was the oil really in use for 30,000 miles? Out of the bottle, Mobil1 AFE 0w20 has viscosity of 8.7 cSt.
 
Dan, yes, it was. The numbers could be off due to the Mazda 0W-20 with moly that I used as top up oil when doing the two filter changes. So, a total of 1 qt of the 4.5 wasn't AFE.
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: KL31


I also wonder as Bigj16 has, if Low Speed Pre Ignition results due to so much fuel in the oil. Makes sense to me, flash point reduced and fuel present increases chance of pre ignition.


Could be. OTOH, fuel enrichment is used as an antidote to "traditional" detonation, and it appears that at least some LSPI conditions involve detonation.

The oil is, however, relatively low octane. I wonder if fuel thinning of the oil (along with high boost pressures) is allowing more oil to enter the combustion chamber, where it promotes detonation.


There's an interesting hypotheses.


Dunno if its likely to be a big enough effect to be significant, though.

Similarly (but more so) I wouldn't have thought fuel-in-the-oil is likely to significantly increase the chances of pre-ignition, since the quantity involved will be much less than the injected fuel charge.

Seems possible the timing could make it significant though, since fuel-in-oil will be available from BDC, whereas the injected fuel isn't available until its..er...injected.

I dunno when fuel is ordinarily injected in a petrol engine. Since (unlike a diesel) it doesn't/shouldnt determine the ignition timing, I'd guess its done fairly early on the upstroke (or during the downstroke) to promote mixing.

Maybe they need to change that.
 
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The whole LPSI think is doing my head in.

I've had quite a few diesels, and direct injection ones at that...and it doesn't happen on them.

(or does it, but they are robust enough to take it, having "evolved" to it from day one).

Octane rating in petrol engines has always been to stop the end gasses from autoigniting at the extreme ends of the chamber - back in the good old days, closed chambers and significant quench bands made it easier, if dirtier.

With a cylinder full of fuel vapour, it gets adsorbed into the oil film on the walls, so imparts an "Octane" rating to any oil that is making it's way up there.

In DI gassers, that's not there. There are 10ths of ml of oil in the rings, available to be "dieseled" in the crevices on the compression stroke...but so too on my diesels...and they ALL (my diesels) produce some pretty harsh knocking noises on acceleration at low speed.

Compare

piston-damage-caused-by-LSPI.jpg


With
s-l500.jpg


My gut feel is that it's always been there with DI...just the fragility of the new "optimised" designs brings it out in the gassers, and definitely not ALL gassers.
 
Apparently ultra-lean running does inject late in the compression stroke. Stochiometric and full-power modes inject "conventionally" during the induction stroke.

I'd guess LSPI occurs in the latter (or last) mode(s) though I dunno that for a fact.

Wikipedia article is quite interesting. First one built in 1902 so the "teething troubles" seem to involve wisdom teeth.

Bitog highlight?: Apparently they made over 100 Crown Vics with direct injection in the late 70's. Get looking.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
piston-damage-caused-by-LSPI.jpg

Isn't that 'explosion' originate from oil control ring?
Combustion Chamber LSPI/detonation if any, may be of lesser significance, I speculate.
27.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The whole LPSI think is doing my head in.

I've had quite a few diesels, and direct injection ones at that...and it doesn't happen on them.

(or does it, but they are robust enough to take it, having "evolved" to it from day one).




In this context, its perhaps significant that, on diesels, the ignition and injection timing are usually the same, so there isn't really an opportunity for PI of the main charge, since the fuel isn't available.

It could happen to residual lubricating oil but the energy availble for destruction seems likely to be much less.
 
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I've been riding GDIT development for a while now and LSPI is quite the thing.
Gasoline in autoignition combusts at a much quicker rate than diesel, so when it detonates at a low RPM (regardless of the reason) it'll do very bad things, always. Gasoline detonation (pre-inition or even at ignition, aka the evil version of 'spark controlled compresion ignition') has always been a potential issue for high-output FI engines but not much summoned or seen by the older designs. It's because of our new engine operating regimes ie. diesel-like torque from gassers, that has brought it to light. In the history of Forced induction gasoline engines, never ever has the boost pressure risen or the torque come on so early in the range than today's implementations, not helped in the least by engine-bogging transmission programming.

LSPI wasn't much of a thing back then because of the low geometric compression ratios, the turbo lag and higher RPM torque curves vs today's GDIT. It was just 'PI' back then. The new GDIT engines have very high cylinder pressures at very low RPM, enabled by small/multi-stage turbos and the charge-cooling of high-pressure direct injection compensating for the elevated compression temperatures by high static compression ratios (ie 12+:1 vs 8:1 of the past). Nevertheless, if that Gasoline AF mixture in the meatiest, low RPM area of the powerband is somehow made to self-ignite, either by the presence of incandescent particles, low-octane species and/or the pressure spike induced by the spark-controlled flame kernel (the very basis for Spark Controlled Compression Ignition) then it's bombs away, we don't have the larger chamber size to buffer the brutal spike of detonating gasoline as we've had in the past. According to the future SCCI combustion regimes, the mode of combustion is similar to some instances of LSPI, but the lean fuel content in the cylinder means much less energy for gasoline detonation, and thus a normally destructive force (fully stoich AF) is scaled way down to be useful and very fuel efficient (controlled, lean "limited energy potential" charge mixture). Cracked ringlands is nothing new, but they used to happen at higher RPMs in the old days, when boost finally peaked, now it's a huge problem because boost peaks early and at low RPMs where the piston dwells in position for longer periods of time, combined with pushing other design limits for efficiency. Whether its pre- or properly timed detonation of gasoline matters little IMO because a fully stoich charge load of gasoline will always do very bad things when detonated/compression ignited especially at low engine speeds.

Also to touch more upon the potential energy, charges are becoming more potent with the new engines as well. With the use of Miller-like valve timing (delayed IVC intended to control charge mass and pumping losses), more of the charge "compression" is happening at the turbine wheel, and not at the compression stroke. This means that since more of the compression work is occuring before the intercooler, it can lose heat at the intercooler, before even reaching the combustion chamber saving the temperature-rise during the compression stroke and controlling compression temperatures. Of course, this means that the charge entering the cylinder is much denser, and will have a compression-stroke temperature peak lower than if standard (non-Miller) IVC timing was used. The phenomenon is then exploited by retaining ignition advance (allowing a larger burn window resulting in a more complete burn) and high-static compression ratio (smaller chamber enhancing burn completion). But should things ever go wrong, like when that nice dense charge stuffed in that small chamber decides to autoignite- the likeliness of major damage is high.

Since naturally aspirated DI engines are atmospherically hard-limited on the maximum density of charge they can intake by the atmosphere, they're not very likely suffer LSPI, and for the same reason are less likely to catastrophically fail by it.
 
Thanks for the informative post. Your reference to SCCI sparked my curiosity. I have read that Mazda’s new SkyActiv X engine which utilizes SCCI will have up to 18:1 compression. They are also going with a supercharger instead of a turbocharger. Are you saying that LSPI will not be a issue with this engine?
 
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol

Gasoline in autoignition combusts at a much quicker rate than diesel, so when it detonates at a low RPM (regardless of the reason) it'll do very bad things, always.


I dunno enough about this to say you're wrong, but I find the "always" in that statement quite surprising.

The general drift of apparently informed comment seems to be that engines will often be quite tolerant of detonation, (as opposed to pre-ignition).

You do say "at low RPM" which might explain the apparent conflict. Low RPM seems likely to encourage detonation (because there is more time for it to happen) but I can't see why it would make it significantly more damaging when it occurs. IF it happens after TDC the combustion space will be expading more slowly, but I'd think the detonation is so much faster than the piston movement that it wouldn't make that much difference to the forces experienced.

My model of LSPI, which I havn't seen explicitly endorsed anywhere, so it could easily be wrong, is that it is pre-ignition which, at least sometimes, induces detonation, which "classical" pre-ignition does not usually do. I base this on some graphs I've seen, and on the reported fact that LSPI can (unlike "classical" pre-ignition) be detected as knock. I suspect it can only happen close to TDC when the compression allows detonation.

Like pre-ignition in general, its perhaps the fact that its pre-ignition induced (i.e. its timing) rather than the fact of the detonation per se, that renders it especially damaging.
 
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