The great filter debate.

[TrainingPolicy]

This has probably been beat to death, but this is a very recent video showing that changing the factory filter on your car does little to add any HP, even with FI and all the different types. At most you will gain 5 HP and once heat soak sets in, you will lose that 5. So, do whatever makes you happy because at the end of the day it won't make a difference!

 

[ZeeOSix]

If you lose 5 HP from motor heat soak with the aftermarket filter, then you're still 5 HP above the same heat soaked engine using the OEM filter.

 

[TiGeo]

Another good one that's been posted here before showing the slight gains from high-flow filters. Not a debate just a discussion on whether the trade-off for you in terms of flow vs. filtering efficiency is worth it. For me it is for others no...simple

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

This has probably been beat to death, but this is a very recent video showing that changing the factory filter on your car does little to add any HP, even with FI and all the different types. At most you will gain 5 HP and once heat soak sets in, you will lose that 5. So, do whatever makes you happy because at the end of the day it won't make a difference!

Are you asking a question or making a statement?

A video based on a vague problem statement that's not properly defined shored up with improperly designed and executed tests ( relative to the problem statement) is not really a legitimate result to be considered for anything.

 

[Imp4]

This has probably been beat to death...

Yes, it has been beaten to death...

 

[TiGeo]

Are you asking a question or making a statement?

A video based on a vague problem statement that's not properly defined shored up with improperly designed and executed tests ( relative to the problem statement) is not really a legitimate result to be considered for anything.

Plenty of back to back dyno runs showing you gain a little from them all over the interwebs. Plenty of data to support less filtering all over the interwebs. The details of how many decimals on the hp gain etc. is up for grabs based on testing but again, not a debate, just fact on both ends - more flow with less filtering. The real question is.....does that drop in filtering actually have any meaningful impact or is it an internet/BITOG boogieman!

 

[Imp4]

Plenty of back to back dyno runs showing you gain a little from them all over the interwebs. Plenty of data to support less filtering all over the interwebs. The details of how many decimals on the hp gain etc. is up for grabs based on testing but again, not a debate, just fact on both ends - more flow with less filtering. The real question is.....does that drop in filtering actually have any meaningful impact or is it an internet/BITOG boogieman!

All if this assumes that air flow is the limiting factor in horsepower development in a particular engine.
Then add sloppily construed and conducted testing and voila, 6 extra horsepower....

 

[kschachn]

All if this assumes that air flow is the limiting factor in horsepower development in a particular engine.
Then add sloppily construed and conducted testing and voila, 6 extra horsepower....

Exactly. Anyone that knows anything about testing knows that if you manipulate and configure the test (usually in a sloppy manner inconsistent with any standardized test method) you can obtain results that support your beliefs.

And yes it has been beat to death. If you already knew or suspected that why make another thread? Even the way you titled this thread indicates you already knew it to be the case.

 

[TiGeo]

All if this assumes that air flow is the limiting factor in horsepower development in a particular engine.
Then add sloppily construed and conducted testing and voila, 6 extra horsepower....

Of course - not all engines get much from these, I'm always speaking w/r to this topic assuming your engine can gain power this way.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

All if this assumes that air flow is the limiting factor in horsepower development in a particular engine.
Then add sloppily construed and conducted testing and voila, 6 extra horsepower....

EXACTLY ( and anyone who understands sizing pumps [ specifically air compressors in this case] knows this.

Filtration is the sidebar issue- all filters are "flow obstructions" just based on the fact that air flows through them with a minutely different velocity on both sides- anything beyond that is simply the specific degree of obstruction of a given filter media.

Whether a different filter ALLOWS ( A filter cannot "add" anything that's not in the design to begin with so increases potential based on capacity versus utilization factors) HP to be achieved in a given application can only be true in cases where the filter is the sole limiting factor in the potential. ( too many of these farm project level "tests" take CONDITIONAL results and try to promote them as absolute values- this is a fools recipe even in properly conducted testing)

If its not the sole factor ( in cases where fuel and other items combine to generate the total work) then the filter is basically a variable catalyst with a contribution margin in the process which can have a varying degree of effect based on the whole.

At that point- how well and how much "filtration" ( and retention) is a different issue and decoupled from the contribution to more HP potential UNTIL the degree of restriction reaches a point that the necessary volume of air relative to the work requirement cannot be maintained. ( too clogged to let enough air in)

Air density ( a very true and significant part of the equation) has to be nulled in any filter evaluation because its not a property of anything the filter can manipulate-that would be the same no matter what the filtration scenario is.

Almost all of these tests ( the home made and some professional ones) and resulting conclusions are simply fundamentally and fatally flawed in the science, the vocabulary, the design of the experiment, the proper analysis and the conclusion. ( we can throw misuse and misunderstandings of standardized tests, standards and their purpose envelopes as well)

Another reason why links and articles should be taken with a degree of skepticism and verification before accepting them as "true" or "factual".

 

[Passport1]

Boxers or briefs, Ginger or MaryAnn. This question is insoluble.

 

[Imp4]

Boxers or briefs, Ginger or MaryAnn. This question is insoluble.

This is not true in regards to the topic at hand and it's a bad metaphor for the circumstances.

 

[rob1715]

I know it's fun to endlessly ponder these threads. Use a good oil filter, change out your cabin air filter and vehicle's air filter once per year. OEM are good, and WIX makes good filters that will fit most vehicles. Go ahead and debate if you gain or lose 5 HP.

 

[TrainingPolicy]

Are you asking a question or making a statement?

A video based on a vague problem statement that's not properly defined shored up with improperly designed and executed tests ( relative to the problem statement) is not really a legitimate result to be considered for anything.

I was making statement hence no question marks.

I feel the 'problem statement' well defined being that "Do you gain HP from aftermarket air filter compared to stock?", the question is answered in the video by the guy installing them and then dyno'ing them on the same car. The answer is simple, yes you gain SOME HP but in every case it was less than 5 HP is that worth $60-1000? My answer is no.

Also, I challenge you to find a video with evidence that any of these air filter brands used 'properly executed tests' and kept ALL the variables the same while just changing the filter.

 

[TrainingPolicy]

Exactly. Anyone that knows anything about testing knows that if you manipulate and configure the test (usually in a sloppy manner inconsistent with any standardized test method) you can obtain results that support your beliefs.

And yes it has been beat to death. If you already knew or suspected that why make another thread? Even the way you titled this thread indicates you already knew it to be the case.

I made another thread because this video was recent, he used multiple different air filter ranging from stock to $1000 aftermarket air intake and tested in on a N/A and FI car. So, this is the most 'up to date' testing of it, obviously you've never had to do research. You always want the most up to date and reliable data. if you didn't want to read it then you can simply click off the thread. Good Day.

 

[TrainingPolicy]

EXACTLY ( and anyone who understands sizing pumps [ specifically air compressors in this case] knows this.

Filtration is the sidebar issue- all filters are "flow obstructions" just based on the fact that air flows through them with a minutely different velocity on both sides- anything beyond that is simply the specific degree of obstruction of a given filter media.

Whether a different filter ALLOWS ( A filter cannot "add" anything that's not in the design to begin with so increases potential based on capacity versus utilization factors) HP to be achieved in a given application can only be true in cases where the filter is the sole limiting factor in the potential. ( too many of these farm project level "tests" take CONDITIONAL results and try to promote them as absolute values- this is a fools recipe even in properly conducted testing)

If its not the sole factor ( in cases where fuel and other items combine to generate the total work) then the filter is basically a variable catalyst with a contribution margin in the process which can have a varying degree of effect based on the whole.

At that point- how well and how much "filtration" ( and retention) is a different issue and decoupled from the contribution to more HP potential UNTIL the degree of restriction reaches a point that the necessary volume of air relative to the work requirement cannot be maintained. ( too clogged to let enough air in)

Air density ( a very true and significant part of the equation) has to be nulled in any filter evaluation because its not a property of anything the filter can manipulate-that would be the same no matter what the filtration scenario is.

Almost all of these tests ( the home made and some professional ones) and resulting conclusions are simply fundamentally and fatally flawed in the science, the vocabulary, the design of the experiment, the proper analysis and the conclusion. ( we can throw misuse and misunderstandings of standardized tests, standards and their purpose envelopes as well)

Another reason why links and articles should be taken with a degree of skepticism and verification before accepting them as "true" or "factual".

I believe these test have more merit than you give credit. We don't live in lab environments, lab environments are PERFECT with little or no external influence at all. We don't live like that in the real world. Congrats you can get 15 HP with the PERFECT environment, but real world you gain 3 HP. Everyone buying these filters and using them are not using them in a lab. They drive around town, the highway and to go visit their girlfriend. So the tests will 'all the variables' might be worth something after all, since the people who spend their hard earned dollars on them will be using them this way.

 

[TrainingPolicy]

PSA: If you don't want to talk about this topic or you have a stick up your rear, then please exit the thread. This one obviously isn't for you and I am sure others will enjoy your supreme thoughts on another topic.

 

[kschachn]

I believe these test have more merit than you give credit. We don't live in lab environments, lab environments are PERFECT with little or no external influence at all. We don't live like that in the real world. Congrats you can get 15 HP with the PERFECT environment, but real world you gain 3 HP. Everyone buying these filters and using them are not using them in a lab. They drive around town, the highway and to go visit their girlfriend. So the tests will 'all the variables' might be worth something after all, since the people who spend their hard earned dollars on them will be using them this way.

That's what a lot of people believe but actually the exact opposite is true. There are very few "real world" tests that are anywhere near worth the time and effort that has been put into them, such tests are extremely difficult to implement properly. For any test to be statistically and experimentally valid all variables except the one being examined must be controlled, and these types of tests do not do that. Your comment about "with all the variables" is the perfect example of a perfectly worthless test. All those hard earned dollars are wasted in your example.

 

[kschachn]

PSA: If you don't want to talk about this topic or you have a stick up your rear, then please exit the thread. This one obviously isn't for you and I am sure others will enjoy your supreme thoughts on another topic.

Rather than enjoying supremely flawed thoughts instead?

 

[TiGeo]

EXACTLY ( and anyone who understands sizing pumps [ specifically air compressors in this case] knows this.

Filtration is the sidebar issue- all filters are "flow obstructions" just based on the fact that air flows through them with a minutely different velocity on both sides- anything beyond that is simply the specific degree of obstruction of a given filter media.

Whether a different filter ALLOWS ( A filter cannot "add" anything that's not in the design to begin with so increases potential based on capacity versus utilization factors) HP to be achieved in a given application can only be true in cases where the filter is the sole limiting factor in the potential. ( too many of these farm project level "tests" take CONDITIONAL results and try to promote them as absolute values- this is a fools recipe even in properly conducted testing)

If its not the sole factor ( in cases where fuel and other items combine to generate the total work) then the filter is basically a variable catalyst with a contribution margin in the process which can have a varying degree of effect based on the whole.

At that point- how well and how much "filtration" ( and retention) is a different issue and decoupled from the contribution to more HP potential UNTIL the degree of restriction reaches a point that the necessary volume of air relative to the work requirement cannot be maintained. ( too clogged to let enough air in)

Air density ( a very true and significant part of the equation) has to be nulled in any filter evaluation because its not a property of anything the filter can manipulate-that would be the same no matter what the filtration scenario is.

Almost all of these tests ( the home made and some professional ones) and resulting conclusions are simply fundamentally and fatally flawed in the science, the vocabulary, the design of the experiment, the proper analysis and the conclusion. ( we can throw misuse and misunderstandings of standardized tests, standards and their purpose envelopes as well)

Another reason why links and articles should be taken with a degree of skepticism and verification before accepting them as "true" or "factual".

What testing do you feel would adequately answer this/these questions? For me it's simple. 3x dyno pulls stock filter. 3x dyno pulls aftermarket. 3x dyno pulls stock. 3x dyno pulls aftermarket. Average them. Compare data.