The Great EV race to the bottom has begun!

[JeffKeryk]

Sure if EV folks treated ICE owners with the same respect as they expect! We are not stupid, mindless cave dwellers, fools, tech haters or not being able to accept the inevitable future for not wanting or not buying and EV. This is BITOG, lots of sub forums, non of which are really applicable to EV's, so it makes about as much sense for EV owners to be posting as me posting in a umbrella forum. I am not talking about you personally.
JMHO.

Then it is the person, not the car. I have come to ignore the people who use "LOL", "insane", etc. Not the kidding use, the derogatory use.
I find such comments disappointing, because they take away from what may be valuable commentary.

Maybe it's just today's version of Ford vs Chevy? LOL...

 

[Torrid]

Then it is the person, not the car. I have come to ignore the people who use "LOL", "insane", etc. Not the kidding use, the derogatory use.
I find such comments disappointing, because they take away from what may be valuable commentary.

Maybe it's just today's version of Ford vs Chevy? LOL...

I still feel on average Ford vs Chevy had a playful tongue in cheek nature about it. Then again when I was younger I drove Chevys and made fun of my Ford driving friends and vise versa. When I got older I drove Fords and the Chevy drivers made fun of me that I worked with. It was always a good laugh. It's not my friends saying things to me about my Tesla.

 

[edyvw]

I guess I don't understand how they lag behind. Their engine technology is second to none...and if if the industry's best reliability record is considered being behind in technology, I'll take it...

Toyota is far behind in technology. There is a reason for that: customers they aim at.
The reason why they are popular in the US is that cheap gas allowed them to relay on obsolete technology. Reliable, but obsolete. And they were fine with it. What are main selling products for Toyota? Highlander (just got turbo), Sienna, Camry etc. Avalon/Camry were replacements for Buick. And it is ok, that is where they were racking up money.
I think Toyota is right going hybrid. While BMW is doing EV, under radar they can’t make enough X5 45e models (PHEV). They just introduced bigger battery for 45e that will allow 60mls EV range, and than you have inline 6 turbo.
And that is where solution is in midterm. Toyota Sienna hybrid, Sequoia, X5 45e etc.

 

[Ws6]

Toyota is far behind in technology. There is a reason for that: customers they aim at.
The reason why they are popular in the US is that cheap gas allowed them to relay on obsolete technology. Reliable, but obsolete. And they were fine with it. What are main selling products for Toyota? Highlander (just got turbo), Sienna, Camry etc. Avalon/Camry were replacements for Buick. And it is ok, that is where they were racking up money.
I think Toyota is right going hybrid. While BMW is doing EV, under radar they can’t make enough X5 45e models (PHEV). They just introduced bigger battery for 45e that will allow 60mls EV range, and than you have inline 6 turbo.
And that is where solution is in midterm. Toyota Sienna hybrid, Sequoia, X5 45e etc.

Hybrid is the safe route right NOW, but companies that are smart have a robust transition to full EV plan under way.

Toyota is just last year's thing. Nothing they make is that great. It's not fun. It's not reliable. It's not cheap.

-White paint issue (VERY expensive for Toyota, but they did the right thing)
-Turbo issues with the Tundra.
-HV cable issues with their hybrids ($5K repair).
-Their EV is horrible and the wheels literally were at risk of falling off, initially.
-They had to go to BMW to get their Supra done. They can't even design their own legends anymore.
-All of their reliable vehicles with their 6 cylinders are phased out for a 2.4 Turbo and we have no idea how that will go.
-The few that still have their 6 cylinder engines get horrible mpg for 2023 and have abysmal power.

I can't think of a single thing Toyota does right now as a whole that is "enviable". They have spit in the eye of their boring customers who "want the same thing I got 10 years ago" and they are a laughing stock to the customer who wants "cutting edge new tech".

 

[demarpaint]

Toyota is far behind in technology. There is a reason for that: customers they aim at.
The reason why they are popular in the US is that cheap gas allowed them to relay on obsolete technology. Reliable, but obsolete. And they were fine with it. What are main selling products for Toyota? Highlander (just got turbo), Sienna, Camry etc. Avalon/Camry were replacements for Buick. And it is ok, that is where they were racking up money.
I think Toyota is right going hybrid. While BMW is doing EV, under radar they can’t make enough X5 45e models (PHEV). They just introduced bigger battery for 45e that will allow 60mls EV range, and than you have inline 6 turbo.
And that is where solution is in midterm. Toyota Sienna hybrid, Sequoia, X5 45e etc.

I agree with most of what you said, however being far behind in technology? Maybe in EV technology, ICE technology, they might be one of the only ICE makers that have what I consider decent DI technology. And for the time being they know what the majority of their customers want. Regarding the EV, I have a feeling they have a trick of two up their sleeve in that department too. Time will tell.

 

[Ws6]

I agree with most of what you said, however being far behind in technology? Maybe in EV technology, ICE technology, they might be one of the only ICE makers that have what I consider decent DI technology. And for the time being they know what the majority of their customers want. Regarding the EV, I have a feeling they have a trick of two up their sleeve in that department too. Time will tell.

What's so good about t heir DI technology? I don't see how it's better than anyone else.

 

[demarpaint]

What's so good about t heir DI technology? I don't see how it's better than anyone else.

It's been discussed here, many times in fact. FTR I'm not a fan of the EV or DI..

 

[edyvw]

I agree with most of what you said, however being far behind in technology? Maybe in EV technology, ICE technology, they might be one of the only ICE makers that have what I consider decent DI technology. And for the time being they know what the majority of their customers want. Regarding the EV, I have a feeling they have a trick of two up their sleeve in that department too. Time will tell.

The DI technology they have is not unique. But, I get what you saying. Their focus on what I said does creat issues for them once they do decide to venture into complexity category.
But, claim that they don’t know what they doing, bcs. not trying to convince everyone how they will have greatest EV, is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[edyvw]

Hybrid is the safe route right NOW, but companies that are smart have a robust transition to full EV plan under way.

Toyota is just last year's thing. Nothing they make is that great. It's not fun. It's not reliable. It's not cheap.

-White paint issue (VERY expensive for Toyota, but they did the right thing)
-Turbo issues with the Tundra.
-HV cable issues with their hybrids ($5K repair).
-Their EV is horrible and the wheels literally were at risk of falling off, initially.
-They had to go to BMW to get their Supra done. They can't even design their own legends anymore.
-All of their reliable vehicles with their 6 cylinders are phased out for a 2.4 Turbo and we have no idea how that will go.
-The few that still have their 6 cylinder engines get horrible mpg for 2023 and have abysmal power.

I can't think of a single thing Toyota does right now as a whole that is "enviable". They have spit in the eye of their boring customers who "want the same thing I got 10 years ago" and they are a laughing stock to the customer who wants "cutting edge new tech".

Their 2.4 turbo is already 2 1/2 years out. It us nothing special, has bunch of BMW solutions to it, but seems ok.
I get all you saying. But, their customers don’t want anything more. I would say their bigger problem was that they totally missed size of current Highlander.

 

[demarpaint]

The DI technology they have is not unique. But, I get what you saying. Their focus on what I said does creat issues for them once they do decide to venture into complexity category.
But, claim that they don’t know what they doing, bcs. not trying to convince everyone how they will have greatest EV, is absolutely ridiculous.

I agree. They didn't get to where they are from being stupid, that's for sure!

 

[Snagglefoot]

Tell us where Toyota lags behind in technology, and I'm not talking about EVs, I'm talking about ICE vehicles and hybrids...

Agree, there are some really notable advances with the Prius.

 

[Snagglefoot]

By the way, Toyota sells a lot of cars in places like Africa where a charging system is unlikely to be well developed. They will clean up if other ICE makers drop the market.

 

[Trav]

By the way, Toyota sells a lot of cars in places like Africa where a charging system is unlikely to be well developed. They will clean up if other ICE makers drop the market.

Or many parts of the USA that are still using a third world power grid. This mess up here is like a faulty on/off switch.

 

[demarpaint]

Or many parts of the USA that are still using a third world power grid. This mess up here is like a faulty on/off switch.

Same lousy grid here too. Combine that lousy grid you have with the cold and snow up there, and the road salt they use and you have an even bigger headache.

 

[shurguywutt]

Not one post about companies like Tesla staying afloat by selling carbon credits to other sectors. Everyone I know with a Tesla either sold it or is looking to sell it. It is a niche market, status symbol, hopefully just because it is ahead of it's time. The youth want them? The youth don't even want to drive anymore, they Uber everywhere. Didn't I hear something recently about a new GM contract for V8 engines? Hmm

 

[Ws6]

Not one post about companies like Tesla staying afloat by selling carbon credits to other sectors. Everyone I know with a Tesla either sold it or is looking to sell it. It is a niche market, status symbol, hopefully just because it is ahead of it's time. The youth want them? The youth don't even want to drive anymore, they Uber everywhere. Didn't I hear something recently about a new GM contract for V8 engines? Hmm

"The youth" aren't buying cars. Young adults, ARE. Ironically, it was a 60 something gent who finally talked me into driving an EV.

I am still curious...what's so special about Toyota DI?

 

[E365]

Good discussion on Tesla price drops and the industry in general.

Tesla Price War, Prelude To An EV Apocalypse - Autoline After Hours 633

TOPIC:- Tesla kicked off a price war that could be financially crippling for everyone else that is selling EVs. Some automakers say they can ignore what Tesl...

www.youtube.com

 

[NismoNVT]

Well in other news, I anticipate Elon and other automakers to announce a sudden materials cost increase of $7500 in the near future.

I always wonder with the subsidy issues, could they be written more effectively?

 

[Rmay635703]

Tell us where Toyota lags behind in technology, and I'm not talking about EVs, I'm talking about ICE vehicles and hybrids...

Toyota squeezes out very very long production periods for common car components,
Their 4 speed automatic from 60 years sgo is still produced for foreign markets and only left the US in 2019 being found in the Yaris.

They were one of the last to axe the 3 speed automatic and one of the last to ditch the 4 speed manual.

They continued to use outdated lumbering beam style rear suspension’s until quite recently.

Go down the rabbit hole and you will find many examples of Toyota continuing to use obsolete technology long after it was abandoned by others

 

[OVERKILL]

"The youth" aren't buying cars. Young adults, ARE. Ironically, it was a 60 something gent who finally talked me into driving an EV.

I am still curious...what's so special about Toyota DI?

Toyota DI also has port injection, which pretty much eliminates the IVD and fuel dilution issues seen with many, if not most, other brands. Ford has now adopted the same approach. BMW seems to be the stand-out on somehow avoiding fuel dilution without hybrid injection.