The global economy: full of surprises

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

Yes, half-truths. Calling a 2010 Taurus a rebadged 500 is a joke. Virtually no interior dimension is the same, there is no shared exterior sheetmetal; not even the roof stampings and greenhouse.

The 2010 Taurus is not a "rebadged" Ford Five Hundred. Sorry. A clear example of half-truth and misinformation. You shot from the hip (again) and missed. Badly. Just like you did regarding Ford of Europe, Jag/LR, and Hyundai designing and testing the 3.3 in the US.
As I stated before, I said "Same powertrain, different sheetmetal" yet you keep on with the "shares no external sheetmetal"..well, no [censored], I already said that....

And I don't remember companies normally selling off "profitable' companies, usually unprofitable ones go. I guess since you say Jag was making them a killing, time to sell Off! I guess that same analogy works for GM's Hummer too...



Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Please provide evidence that the Lambda was designed in the US.

Quote:
Hyundai is able to bring vehicles to life from design, to testing and now to production in the United States.
I don't know, its the companies letter, why should I doubt it?

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Not only does this link say absolutely nothing about Hyundai designing or testing any engines in the US, it doesn't say anything about Hyundai 3.3 being designed and tested in the US.

And FYI, the Hyundai 3.3 was the first member of the Lambda engine family. And the Genesis Lambda engine is indeed based on the same basic engine architecture as the Sonata 3.3.

I did not say it wasn't BASED on the 3.3, I said the engine used in the Genesis was NOT the 3.3 used in the Sonata...

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

Yea, you did a great job. Except Hyundai Motor Company's Powertrain R&D Center is located in Namyang, Korea and the majority of your "points" were nothing but baseless speculation.


Again. back to the Hyundai letter. I suppose nothing originates from California R&D..

Either way...

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
As far as the other automakers doing "relatively well", not all of them are.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/business/global/09toyota.html



They are not going bankrupt....

Guess that was a half-truth as well.....

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
As I stated before, I said "Same powertrain, different sheetmetal" yet you keep on with the "shares no external sheetmetal"..well, no [censored], I already said that....

Your original statement was:
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
The new Taurus, while probably a well built car, is nothing more than a rebadged '500' that Ford couldn't sell well.


You changed your tune afterwards.

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
And I don't remember companies normally selling off "profitable' companies, usually unprofitable ones go. I guess since you say Jag was making them a killing, time to sell Off! I guess that same analogy works for GM's Hummer too...


I never said Jag was "making a killing". I said LR was a money maker, not Jag. Ford dumped the duo because they can read market trends, and their decision proved a wise one as J/LR have become a money pit for Tata thanks to the slowing economy.

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
I don't know, its the companies letter, why should I doubt it?


Except the letter says nothing about designing or testing engines in the US. We already know Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, etc. design a couple US models (e.g. Sonata, Sante Fe) in the US, this was established by me in my first response to you.

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Not only does this link say absolutely nothing about Hyundai designing or testing any engines in the US, it doesn't say anything about Hyundai 3.3 being designed and tested in the US.

And FYI, the Hyundai 3.3 was the first member of the Lambda engine family. And the Genesis Lambda engine is indeed based on the same basic engine architecture as the Sonata 3.3.

I did not say it wasn't BASED on the 3.3, I said the engine used in the Genesis was NOT the 3.3 used in the Sonata...


Same basic architecture, both of which where designed and developed in Korea. Not the same engine? By your logic I could just claim the Genesis V6 is nothing but a rebadged Sonata 3.3.

Nevermind the fact they have radically different performance characteristics and traits. Sound familiar? Kind of like the 2005-2009 500/Taurus and the 2010 Taurus, perhaps?

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Again. back to the Hyundai letter. I suppose nothing originates from California R&D..

Either way...


Yet another half-truth, not only did I never claim that "nothing" originates from Hyundai's US design centers, the letter in no way supports your assertion that the 3.3 was designed and tested in the US.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
As far as the other automakers doing "relatively well", not all of them are.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/business/global/09toyota.html



They are not going bankrupt....

Guess that was a half-truth as well.....


Perhaps, in a way.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/co...ws+%2B+analysis

They've already sought government loans from Japan. Their cash on hand is comparable to Ford's, though their debt load is far better, and they have recently lost marketshare, slipping back to #3 in the US.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

Your original statement was:

The new Taurus, while probably a well built car, is nothing more than a rebadged '500' that Ford couldn't sell well.
You changed your tune afterwards.

Yes, and your counter was that it was not, but instead a totally different car. To which I said it was basically the same drivetrain with different sheetmetal. updated, of course.

I don't see how the tune was changed..

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I never said Jag was "making a killing". I said LR was a money maker, not Jag. Ford dumped the duo because they can read market trends, and their decision proved a wise one as J/LR have become a money pit for Tata thanks to the slowing economy.

you said " LR was a money maker and Jag was close to it when Ford sold them." this is why I said if they were making a killing why did they sell off.



Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Except the letter says nothing about designing or testing engines in the US. We already know Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, etc. design a couple US models (e.g. Sonata, Sante Fe) in the US, this was established by me in my first response to you.
And my stance was that it said "designing cars in the US". where does 'cars' stop and 'components' (engines) begin? when I see something being 'designed and made" in the US, that includes all of it. not just parts of it.


Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Same basic architecture, both of which where designed and developed in Korea. Not the same engine? By your logic I could just claim the Genesis V6 is nothing but a rebadged Sonata 3.3.

Nevermind the fact they have radically different performance characteristics and traits. Sound familiar? Kind of like the 2005-2009 500/Taurus and the 2010 Taurus, perhaps?

Unlike the Ford, the geneses shares NO platform with the Sonata. It is bigger, and has different drivetrain, etc. The Taurus uses the same platform as the 500/freestyle with different sheetmetal. "new face on an old chassis". Comparing the Sonata and Genesis would be two different handling characteristics, comparing the (new) Taurus to the (older-08,09) 500/freestyle would be close to same handling, because the drivelines are the same, as the only changes are the interior and sheetmetal.
The genesis' "carryover" 3.8 was the engine used in the Azera. which is, by right a 'bigger brother" of the 3.3, and was developed after the 3.3, for the Azera. The V8 used in the Genesis is the Tau engine, completely different that the Lambda

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT


Yet another half-truth, not only did I never claim that "nothing" originates from Hyundai's US design centers, the letter in no way supports your assertion that the 3.3 was designed and tested in the US.


not half truth, it does not say it wasn't developed there either,. now does it? depends on how you read it, don't you think? I am just going by what i quoted as the letter stated.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Yes, and your counter was that it was not, but instead a totally different car. To which I said it was basically the same drivetrain with different sheetmetal. updated, of course.


Yet another misinterpretation. I simply said the 2010 Taurus was not just a rebadged 500. Dude, [censored] near everything about the car is different. Every piece of sheetmetal, every piece of interior trim, virtually every exterior and interior dimension is different, radical suspension differences. Pretty much the only thing that carried over was the wheelbase and the floorpan. Rebadged my [censored].

Quote:
I don't see how the tune was changed..

Another half-truth. You, me and everyone reading this thread can see you did a 180 on this.

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I never said Jag was "making a killing". I said LR was a money maker, not Jag. Ford dumped the duo because they can read market trends, and their decision proved a wise one as J/LR have become a money pit for Tata thanks to the slowing economy.

you said " LR was a money maker and Jag was close to it when Ford sold them." this is why I said if they were making a killing why did they sell off.


Yes, that is what I said. Please note nowhere did I say Jaguar was making a killing.

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Except the letter says nothing about designing or testing engines in the US. We already know Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, etc. design a couple US models (e.g. Sonata, Sante Fe) in the US, this was established by me in my first response to you.
And my stance was that it said "designing cars in the US". where does 'cars' stop and 'components' (engines) begin? when I see something being 'designed and made" in the US, that includes all of it. not just parts of it.


Hyundai powertrain operations are in Korea. Hyundai designs a couple US specific models in the US. Sorry, but Hyundai's letter can in no way be interpreted as designing all components, especially components shared with foreign market models as being designed in the US. Hyundai has no car with all components designed in the US. In fact, neither does anyone else. However, Hyundai's engineering presence in the US is minuscule compared to most and I've already provided sources showing this.

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Same basic architecture, both of which where designed and developed in Korea. Not the same engine? By your logic I could just claim the Genesis V6 is nothing but a rebadged Sonata 3.3.

Nevermind the fact they have radically different performance characteristics and traits. Sound familiar? Kind of like the 2005-2009 500/Taurus and the 2010 Taurus, perhaps?

Unlike the Ford, the geneses shares NO platform with the Sonata. It is bigger, and has different drivetrain, etc.


Please stick to the topic at hand. The Genesis' Lambda V6 ENGINE shares the same basic architecture as the Sonata 3.3. I think I'm beginning to see the problem here, you don't understand what a chassis or engine family even means, do you?

Quote:
The Taurus uses the same platform as the 500/freestyle with different sheetmetal. "new face on an old chassis". Comparing the Sonata and Genesis would be two different handling characteristics, comparing the (new) Taurus to the (older-08,09) 500/freestyle would be close to same handling, because the drivelines are the same, as the only changes are the interior and sheetmetal.
The genesis' "carryover" 3.8 was the engine used in the Azera. which is, by right a 'bigger brother" of the 3.3, and was developed after the 3.3, for the Azera. The V8 used in the Genesis is the Tau engine, completely different that the Lambda


Except no one compared the Sonata to the Genesis. I compared the Genesis V6 to the Sonata 3.3. Since they share the same basic architecture, why isn't the Genesis V6 just a rebadged Sonata 3.3? Why do you have double standards regarding the 2005 Five Hundred and the 2010 Taurus? Sure, the two cars share the same wheelbase, suspension mounting points, floor pan and subframes (i.e. chassis) but they are thoroughly different cars. Why is the Genesis V6 so distinct from the Sonata 3.3 yet the 2010 Taurus is just a rebadged Five Hundred? Both are variations/evolutions of a preexisting designs. Why does the Genesis V6 get a free pass? Your logic is seriously flawed.

2005 Five Hundred = D3 chassis
2010 Taurus = D3 chassis
Sonata 3.3 = Hyundai Lambda V6
Genesis V6 = Hyundai Lambda V6

Both the 2010 Taurus and the Genesis Lambda V6 are far removed from their initial iterations. So why is the Taurus just a rebadged Five Hundred while the Genesis V6 "totally different"?

Quote:
not half truth, it does not say it wasn't developed there either,. now does it? depends on how you read it, don't you think? I am just going by what i quoted as the letter stated.

The letter stated nothing about the engine. I've already provided you a source showing you the Lambda is a Korean design. You just can't accept you are wrong.

 

[Ben99GT]

And just to clarify the '10 Taurus/Five Hundred chassis.

While both are technically built on the D3 platform, the 05-07 Five Hundred and the 08/09 Taurus were built on the D258 chassis while the 2010 Taurus is more similar to the MKS' D385 chassis than it is to the 05-09 500/Taurus.

There are some fairly significant differences between the D285 and the D385 (far beyond sheetmetal), suspension differences, belt line differences, height/length/width differences.

Calling a 2010 Taurus a rebadged Five Hundred is ignorant and borderline ludicrous.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
And just to clarify the '10 Taurus/Five Hundred chassis.

While both are technically built on the D3 platform, the 05-07 Five Hundred and the 08/09 Taurus were built on the D258 chassis while the 2010 Taurus is more similar to the MKS' D385 chassis than it is to the 05-09 500/Taurus.

Thank you. You just affirmed what I have been saying.

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
There are some fairly significant differences between the D285 and the D385 (far beyond sheetmetal), suspension differences, belt line differences, height/length/width differences.

Calling a 2010 Taurus a rebadged Five Hundred is ignorant and borderline ludicrous.

It is not ludicrous. Many manufacturers do this, including Hyundai/KIA. I stand behind my assertion that the Taurus is, as I said before, a rebadged and updated version of the 500/freestyle. It still shares the same chassis and engine drivetrain. The only thing the Genesis 'shares' with the Sonata is the 'bigger brother' version of the Lambda engine. The chassis and everything else is different. It is larger than a sonata and aside from the base engine (3.8L), would be like comparing the Taurus with, say, a focus.

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

Another half-truth. You, me and everyone reading this thread can see you did a 180 on this.

No, no 180. I said it was a rebadged 500. You argued that point and I explained why I thought it was.

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Except no one compared the Sonata to the Genesis. I compared the Genesis V6 to the Sonata 3.3. Since they share the same basic architecture, why isn't the Genesis V6 just a rebadged Sonata 3.3?
THe engines (Lamda)are teh only similarites between the Genesis, the Taurus shares ( as you showed in your example) the same chassis and complete driveline.

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Both the 2010 Taurus and the Genesis Lambda V6 are far removed from their initial iterations. So why is the Taurus just a rebadged Five Hundred while the Genesis V6 "totally different"?

2005 Five Hundred = D3 chassis
2010 Taurus = D3 chassis
Sonata 3.3 = Hyundai Lambda V6
Genesis V6 = Hyundai Lambda V6

because There is a big difference between a whole chassis ( my example of 'rebadge') than there is just a base model engine.


Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The letter stated nothing about the engine. I've already provided you a source showing you the Lambda is a Korean design. You just can't accept you are wrong.


I have no issue with accepting 'wrong'. As I said before, I am just going by what I quoted as the letter stated, and my earlier quote of "And my stance was that it said "designing cars in the US". where does 'cars' stop and 'components' (engines) begin? when I see something being 'designed and made" in the US, that includes all of it. not just parts of it."

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Tim H.

It is not ludicrous. Many manufacturers do this, including Hyundai/KIA. I stand behind my assertion that the Taurus is, as I said before, a rebadged and updated version of the 500/freestyle. It still shares the same chassis and engine drivetrain. The only thing the Genesis 'shares' with the Sonata is the 'bigger brother' version of the Lambda engine. The chassis and everything else is different. It is larger than a sonata and aside from the base engine (3.8L), would be like comparing the Taurus with, say, a focus.


Tim. Stand back and take a DEEP BREATH.

1. You brought up the Sonata, claiming the engine was designed in Alabama.

2. Ben called you on it, showing the Lamda engine was developed in Korea and was the basis for the engine in the Genesys.

3. You argued with him.

4. You brought up the Taurus being a sheetmetal changed version of the 500. Then somehow turned this into a comparison of the differences between the Sonata and Genesys vs the differences between the 500 and the Taurus.

The issue here is that nobody else was making that comparison....... The argument was about the Taurus not being the same as the 500 as there were marked platform changes made.

There was also a SEPARATE argument about the Lamda being Korean/not Korean. You seem to have now merged the two arguments into something that was never being argued in the first place. I can see why Ben is getting frustrated here.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Tim. Stand back and take a DEEP BREATH.

1. You brought up the Sonata, claiming the engine was designed in Alabama.

2. Ben called you on it, showing the Lamda engine was developed in Korea and was the basis for the engine in the Genesis.

3. You argued with him.

4. You brought up the Taurus being a sheetmetal changed version of the 500. Then somehow turned this into a comparison of the differences between the Sonata and Genesis vs the differences between the 500 and the Taurus.

The issue here is that nobody else was making that comparison....... The argument was about the Taurus not being the same as the 500 as there were marked platform changes made.

There was also a SEPARATE argument about the Lamda being Korean/not Korean. You seem to have now merged the two arguments into something that was never being argued in the first place. I can see why Ben is getting frustrated here.


1. Yes, I did.

2. Ben has said the Hyundai research powertrain center is in Namkang, Korea.

3. I did because Information That I had was Sonata (with it's 3.3) was designed and built in NA. The information he provided was for the 3.8l used in the genesis, a later version of the 3.3 engine.

4. It was brought up originally from Ben's comparison of buying a Taurus over a Genesis. When He compared the Engine in the Genesis to the Engine in the Sonata I felt he then included both vehicles, especially with the "rebadged Sonata 3.3" comment

I felt yes, there were two arguments going on, one of the Lambda engine, and the other of the Taurus rebadge. The arguments were merged because subsequent postings had both subjects contained within them.

Since you feel I am wrong on this subject I will concede the debate To Ben.

 

[robbobster]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT



Perhaps, in a way.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/co...ws+%2B+analysis

They've already sought government loans from Japan. Their cash on hand is comparable to Ford's, though their debt load is far better, and they have recently lost marketshare, slipping back to #3 in the US.




"Toyota is not in danger. It's out to get the lowest price for funding that the strength of its credit can get," said Yasuaki Iwamoto, an analyst at Okasan Securities. "On the balance sheet, it doesn't matter if the funds are private or public."

With credit markets worldwide in turmoil, Toyota's move may make it easier for other Japanese companies to follow suit and turn to state-backed loans prior to the closing of books for the business year at the end of March.

CNN Article

Ford's cash position is due to Mullaly mortgaging every asset they owned prior to the economic downturn. Toyota's cash position is not leveraged...it's cash.

Japanese financial papers have suggested that the Japanese government offered Toyota favorable loan packages, to make it easier for other Japanese companies to come forward and ask for loans without losing face...many companies are too proud to ask for help, but "if Toyota did it, then we can, too."