The global economy: full of surprises

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My wife's Matrix will be due for an air filter soon. I wasn't impressed by the aftermarket filters I looked at, so I stopped by the dealer to pick up a gen-yoo-wine Toyota filter. It's a Denso product. Guess what's stamped on the filter element? Made in USA. I wasn't expecting that. The aftermarket filters I looked at were made in China or Israel. The Toyota air filter costs more than a Purolator or Fram, but it seems like a better filter, and its having been made in the U.S. makes me feel better about paying a few more bucks.
 
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Ya. My whole Toyota truck is made--not assembled--made, in USA. I coulda bought a Dodge Ram but they were imported from Mexico.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Reginald
My wife's Matrix will be due for an air filter soon. I wasn't impressed by the aftermarket filters I looked at, so I stopped by the dealer to pick up a gen-yoo-wine Toyota filter. It's a Denso product. Guess what's stamped on the filter element? Made in USA. I wasn't expecting that. The aftermarket filters I looked at were made in China or Israel. The Toyota air filter costs more than a Purolator or Fram, but it seems like a better filter, and its having been made in the U.S. makes me feel better about paying a few more bucks.
You can't beat the quality of a Toyota oor Honda air filter. The Fram for example is 1/2 the filter...literally.
 
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 Originally Posted By: river_rat
Ya. My whole Toyota truck is made--not assembled--made, in USA. I coulda bought a Dodge Ram but they were imported from Mexico.
Yap, I had a few import cars made in USA (Toyota and Subaru), yet american cars are imported.
 
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Yeah, and somehow "American" cars are called "Domestic" and considered OK to drive by patriotic standards when made in Mexico, yet "Foreign" cars that are made in the US, is somehow hurting the US economy because their head offices are overseas. Glad someone else gets it because I have been scratching my head for a while over some of the B.S. ;\)
 
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Foreign cars assembled in the US aren't as good for the US as Domestic cars assembled in the US. I'll take Taurus/MKS over a Genesis for this reason alone. Is it more patriotic to buy a Mexican assembled product produced by a company that contributes exponentially more to the US economy or a US assembled product produced by a company that comparatively contributes very little to the US economy and by and large favors overseas engineering, R&D, and imported parts content? Admittedly, this situation is a bit cloudy. http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/files/scorecards/Ford_v_Hyundai.pdf http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/files/scorecards/Ford_v_Toyota.pdf http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/files/scorecards/Ford_v_Foreign.pdf Personally, in the case of automobiles I'd prefer to support the more "domestic friendly" company, but I can see the counter arguments as well.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Foreign cars assembled in the US aren't as good for the US as Domestic cars assembled in the US. I'll take Taurus/MKS over a Genesis for this reason alone. Is it more patriotic to buy a Mexican assembled product produced by a company that contributes exponentially more to the US economy or a US assembled product produced by a company that comparatively contributes very little to the US economy and by and large favors overseas engineering, R&D, and imported parts content? Admittedly, this situation is a bit cloudy. http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/files/scorecards/Ford_v_Hyundai.pdf http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/files/scorecards/Ford_v_Toyota.pdf http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/files/scorecards/Ford_v_Foreign.pdf Personally, in the case of automobiles I'd prefer to support the more "domestic friendly" company, but I can see the counter arguments as well.
Problem is, not as many 'domestic' cars are made domestically anymore like in the past, and if they are, they are full of 'foreign' made parts.. I will take the Genesis because IMHO it is a better made car, with a better warranty. AS for cloudy, Hyundai's' research and development center is in California. Your links may show a version of how much each company puts into the US economy, however does not take into account that Ford has always been here, and the other 'foreign' companies used to have NO factories the US at all. But it took those foreign companies products, made in their own countries, imported to the US, to force companies like Ford to produce a better quality product. If they (ford, GM, Chrysler, Etc) had kept that edge in the first place, 'Foreign' companies wouldn't have even made it in the first place (ex: how many FIATs do you see running around here?). that being said, I would much rather have those foreign manufactures building and working plants in the US, employing US workers, then having them still being made only in their own countries, yet still being sold here like they were in the 60's and 70's. This considering that people are buying 'foreign', and doing so with good reason. Would you change your stance if say FORD decided it would be well cheaper to build ALL its vehicles Strictly out of country and imported here?
 
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Since most of the economic activity associated with a car occurs in driving, fueling, and maintaining that car, it doesn't really matter where it was made. What matters is how long you can keep it on the road in good shape.
 

Reginald

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Economic considerations aside, I'm glad I got the made-in-USA Denso air filter. The aftermarket filters I looked at are very different from the Denso product, and I'm not confident that they would have made a good seal in the air box. I thought replacing the air filter on my Tacoma was easy, but replacing the Matrix's filter is so childishly simple that I'm pretty sure I could train a monkey to do it. The original filter has only 17,000 miles on it, but it looks pretty crummy. It's not horrible, but the upstream side has a lot of dirt and junk in it. I don't think I'd ever let an air filter go 30,000 miles in these parts. We have so much pollen in the spring and early summer that using the windshield washer results in a layer of yellowish mud on the wipers, and the soil hereabouts is a combination of red clay and sand that produces an amazing amount of dust whenever we go more than a week without rain. I sponged down the engine cover, air box, and assorted other surfaces this morning, and the water in the bucket was black before I was half done. And I cleaned that engine less than six months ago.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Problem is, not as many 'domestic' cars are made domestically anymore like in the past, and if they are, they are full of 'foreign' made parts.
The research has been done. Please note the jobs per car rating in those pdfs. Yes, "domestic" cars still employ far more US/Canadian jobs per car when you average their entire lineups. Sure, Toyota may have a model or two that compares, Hyundai may have one or two, but across the whole lineup the foreign manufacturer's average doesn't even remotely compare.
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I will take the Genesis because IMHO it is a better made car, with a better warranty.
The Genesis is a better made car? Not according to the reviews I've been reading.
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AS for cloudy, Hyundai's' research and development center is in California. Your links may show a version of how much each company puts into the US economy, however does not take into account that Ford has always been here, and the other 'foreign' companies used to have NO factories the US at all. But it took those foreign companies products, made in their own countries, imported to the US, to force companies like Ford to produce a better quality product. If they (ford, GM, Chrysler, Etc) had kept that edge in the first place, 'Foreign' companies wouldn't have even made it in the first place (ex: how many FIATs do you see running around here?). that being said, I would much rather have those foreign manufactures building and working plants in the US, employing US workers, then having them still being made only in their own countries, yet still being sold here like they were in the 60's and 70's. This considering that people are buying 'foreign', and doing so with good reason. Would you change your stance if say FORD decided it would be well cheaper to build ALL its vehicles Strictly out of country and imported here?
Cars aren't clothes or TVs, cars require a ton of R&D, engineering, testing, certification, etc, etc, etc. This is why point of final assembly isn't maybe the best estimate of which purchase is doing more to support the US in a macro view. Take Ford, the Aston Martin V12, the new Jaguar 5.0L V8, all of their new engines including the 6.7 Scorpion, the 5.0L Coyote, the 3.5 Cyclone, etc., etc. were designed and tested right here in the US. Ford spends billions of dollars every year right here in the US on R&D and scientific research that may or may not see production. Toyota and Hyundai do not. They have a few R&D centers that help develop NA specific products and offer regional support to their main R&D centers but that's about it. They have the same type of presence here that Ford does in Europe. Sure, Ford has R&D centers, manufacturing plants, and design centers in Europe but the heavy lifting, the heavy scientific research and testing is done here because Ford is a US based company with the most presence here. I want Ford, McDonald's or whatever American company to expand into foreign markets, I want to see them opening manufacturing plants in other countries (but not at the expense of their domestic presence) but I don't like seeing people thinking Toyota, Hondas, or Hyundais are "just as American" because they have a few assembly plants here and couple skeleton R&D centers here in the US. It's just not the case.
 
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Jobs per car includes way more than assembly, which is why it's relevant in the first place.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The research has been done. Please note the jobs per car rating in those pdfs. Yes, "domestic" cars still employ far more US/Canadian jobs per car when you average their entire lineups. Sure, Toyota may have a model or two that compares, Hyundai may have one or two, but across the whole lineup the foreign manufacturer's average doesn't even remotely compare.
yes, and numbers can be 'spun' as well, while true, FORD employs 'more' folk than the foreign companies, but also look at what those people do, Ex: it takes say, 10 people to make a FORD, yet only 6 to make a Toyota (if you dispute those facts that it takes more people to build an American car than a foreign car, consider all the people that GM Ford, Chrysler have laid off compared to foreign). Just because a company has more people building a car, does not mean they need more people. I can have 10 people make my McDonald's hamburger when in reality it only takes 5, so to employ those other 5 people, I need to raise my price for each burger, I then become unable to compete with Asia-Burger because they can build a burger cheaper with thier 5 employees. So to compete I put alittle less lettuce on my burger (materials), use cheaper meat (Cheaper plastics), less refills at the drink fountain, you get my meaning.. This type of scenario has already happened which is only one of the many reasons GM and Chrysler went bankrupt, with even Ford teetered on the edge
 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The Genesis is a better made car? Not according to the reviews I've been reading.
And I have read reviews to the contrary. The new Taurus, while probably a well built car, is nothing more than a rebadged '500' that Ford couldn't sell well. and IIRC, reviews were not that great on it.
 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Cars aren't clothes or TVs, cars require a ton of R&D, engineering, testing, certification, etc, etc, etc. This is why point of final assembly isn't maybe the best estimate of which purchase is doing more to support the US in a macro view. Take Ford, the Aston Martin V12, the new Jaguar 5.0L V8, all of their new engines including the 6.7 Scorpion, the 5.0L Coyote, the 3.5 Cyclone, etc., etc. were designed and tested right here in the US.
Using your examples, even electronics need constant R&D for emissions and such. while maybe not on a scale as automakers, most manufacturers know 'what they can get away with' as far as crash tests, emissions, etc, and only research what the Govt decides is needed for those items. while your example of Ford's R&D being here rather than Europe, where their market is really aimed, wasn't that well of an idea, if it were, TATA motors wouldn't be in the process of buying Jag out. Ford tried to put US ingenuity into a European market, and it hasn't worked so well, why do you think the other cars FORD builds (for EU market)are not made or even remotely 'copied' for sale in the US?
 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Ford spends billions of dollars every year right here in the US on R&D and scientific research that may or may not see production. Toyota and Hyundai do not. They have a few R&D centers that help develop NA specific products and offer regional support to their main R&D centers but that's about it They have the same type of presence here that Ford does in Europe. Sure, Ford has R&D centers, manufacturing plants, and design centers in Europe but the heavy lifting, the heavy scientific research and testing is done here because Ford is a US based company with the most presence here. I want Ford, McDonald's or whatever American company to expand into foreign markets, I want to see them opening manufacturing plants in other countries (but not at the expense of their domestic presence) but I don't like seeing people thinking Toyota, Hondas, or Hyundais are "just as American" because they have a few assembly plants here and couple skeleton R&D centers here in the US. It's just not the case.
The Sonata, and its 3.3 engine (designed/built in Alabama), were developed and tested in the US, for the US market. Only after that were they also built for other markets. as i said, goes back to how many people does it Really take to build that car? I am not bashing the American worker or the companies, I, like you just get tired of all the buzz about how 'American' I am buying. If I really wanted to bash, I could just as well say if the 'big 3' had their [censored] together in the first place, there wouldn't BE any Toyota or Hyundai plants here in the US. So if you REALLY want to be 'patriotic', ask that question first.. then go figure out why the big 3 are in financial mess, while other companies are doing relatively well.
 
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I'll start a car company that uses robots for assembly, for making all parts, and the cars will only be sold online, by computer. No humans will be involved at any stage in production, except for myself, sitting in a tower, overseeing everything. I could even start making new robots in this factory, to replace the ones that malfunction.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Tim H.
yes, and numbers can be 'spun' as well, while true, FORD employs 'more' folk than the foreign companies, but also look at what those people do, Ex: it takes say, 10 people to make a FORD, yet only 6 to make a Toyota (if you dispute those facts that it takes more people to build an American car than a foreign car, consider all the people that GM Ford, Chrysler have laid off compared to foreign).
GM, Ford, and Chrysler made cuts to become "right sized" for the current market, not because they have superfluous jobs. And once again you keep focusing on the assembly line, JPC includes far more than the assembly line.
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Just because a company has more people building a car, does not mean they need more people.
Sure it does. It means that domestic car purchase supports more domestic jobs because that domestic car supports more domestic white collar jobs (indisputable), more domestic assembly plant jobs, and more domestic supplier jobs.
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I can have 10 people make my McDonald's hamburger when in reality it only takes 5, so to employ those other 5 people, I need to raise my price for each burger, I then become unable to compete with Asia-Burger because they can build a burger cheaper with thier 5 employees.
But that isn't the case here.
 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
And I have read reviews to the contrary. The new Taurus, while probably a well built car, is nothing more than a rebadged '500' that Ford couldn't sell well. and IIRC, reviews were not that great on it.
The new Taurus is a rebadged 500? Are you living in 2008? - http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/22/first-drive-2010-ford-taurus-the-once-and-future-king/ - http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0909_2010_ford_taurus_sho_test/index.html - http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-2010-ford-taurus/
 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
TATA motors wouldn't be in the process of buying Jag out. Ford tried to put US ingenuity into a European market, and it hasn't worked so well, why do you think the other cars FORD builds (for EU market)are not made or even remotely 'copied' for sale in the US?
Are you kidding me? Ford of Europe is kicking [censored] and taking names and has been for years. Ford sold Jag/LR because there is no way Jag was going to continue it's short term success with a global economy slump. Their predictions were true and TaTa is paying for it now. LR was a money maker and Jag was close to it when Ford sold them. http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/48751...e-grow-in-april The rags over there love comparing the hot rodded Focus to BMWs.
 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The Sonata, and its 3.3 engine (designed/built in Alabama), were developed and tested in the US, for the US market.
Please provide evidence that the Lambda was designed in the US. I could find no evidence of it, but I did find this: http://auto-report.net/?p=2750 Namyang, Korea — Hyundai Motor Company's Powertrain R&D Center at Namyang has developed a new high-performance V6 Lambda (λ) RS (Rear wheel drive Sports) engine which will see its first application in the Genesis Coupe to be launched in Korea this month. Based on the highly successful Lambda first introduced in 2004, the RS edition features several key modifications which have raised power to a maximum of 310 ps @ 6300 rpm (310 hp for US Market) and peak torque to 36.8 kg/m @ 4700 rpm. You need to lay off of the half-truths and misinformation if you want to continue this discussion. I refuse to spend all of my time correcting misinformation as opposed to the "debate" at hand.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
You need to lay off of the half-truths and misinformation if you want to continue this discussion. I refuse to spend all of my time correcting misinformation as opposed to the "debate" at hand.
Half truths? if you did more internet searching you would find the following: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:MtBZ...n&ct=clnk&gl=us Discontinuation See Wikinews article: Ford Taurus to be revived The restyled Five Hundred sedan, which was first shown at the 2007 Detroit Auto Show was renamed as the Taurus for the 2008 model year. The rebadging announcement was made at the 2007 Chicago Auto Show, and Ford employees hastily removed the badging from a Five Hundred on a rotating stand, and replaced it with Taurus badging.[citation needed] The Ford Freestyle was also discontinued, in favor of the 2008 Ford Taurus X, which is a facelifted revision of the Freestyle. The updated Five Hundred / Taurus included an upgraded 263 hp (196 kW) 3.5 L V6, replacing the 203 hp (151 kW) 3.0 L V6 for the 2008 model year, along with new front and rear styling. The CVT transmission, used with the AWD powertrain, is replaced by the standard 6-speed. The Mercury Montego was renamed as the Sable as well. While this maybe an older article, my point still stands, as the new taurus is simply a 2010 version of what the freestyle/500 would have been. Simply rebadged. And this article: http://www.fordtaurus.net/specs/2008-ford-taurus-specifications.php shows the 2010 Taurus with the same drivetrain as the 2008 "rebadged" taurus/500. While I am not living in 2008, apparently Ford still is... AS I said, rebadged 500. Same drivetrain, newer sheetmetal.
 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Please provide evidence that the Lambda was designed in the US.
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:qLxL...n&ct=clnk&gl=us The plant brings Hyundai’s commitment to the North American market full circle. Since 2001, Hyundai has invested more than $200 million in design and testing facilities throughout the U.S. With a $30 million design center in Irvine, Calif., a $60 million proving ground in California City, Calif., and a $117 million technical center in Ann Arbor, Mich., Hyundai is able to bring vehicles to life from design, to testing and now to production in the United States. The genesis' engine is not the 3.3 lambda developed for the Sonata. I have already made my points on the rest.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Half truths? if you did more internet searching you would find the following: While this maybe an older article, my point still stands, as the new taurus is simply a 2010 version of what the freestyle/500 would have been. Simply rebadged. And this article: http://www.fordtaurus.net/specs/2008-ford-taurus-specifications.php shows the 2010 Taurus with the same drivetrain as the 2008 "rebadged" taurus/500. While I am not living in 2008, apparently Ford still is... AS I said, rebadged 500. Same drivetrain, newer sheetmetal.
Yes, half-truths. Calling a 2010 Taurus a rebadged 500 is a joke. Virtually no interior dimension is the same, there is no shared exterior sheetmetal; not even the roof stampings and greenhouse. The 2010 Taurus is not a "rebadged" Ford Five Hundred. Sorry. A clear example of half-truth and misinformation. You shot from the hip (again) and missed. Badly. Just like you did regarding Ford of Europe, Jag/LR, and Hyundai designing and testing the 3.3 in the US.
 Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Please provide evidence that the Lambda was designed in the US.
 Quote:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:qLxL...n&ct=clnk&gl=us The plant brings Hyundai’s commitment to the North American market full circle. Since 2001, Hyundai has invested more than $200 million in design and testing facilities throughout the U.S. With a $30 million design center in Irvine, Calif., a $60 million proving ground in California City, Calif., and a $117 million technical center in Ann Arbor, Mich., Hyundai is able to bring vehicles to life from design, to testing and now to production in the United States. The genesis' engine is not the 3.3 lambda developed for the Sonata. I have already made my points on the rest.
Not only does this link say absolutely nothing about Hyundai designing or testing any engines in the US, it doesn't say anything about Hyundai 3.3 being designed and tested in the US. And FYI, the Hyundai 3.3 was the first member of the Lambda engine family. And the Genesis Lambda engine is indeed based on the same basic engine architecture as the Sonata 3.3. Hyundai - "Based on the highly successful Lambda first introduced in 2004, the RS edition features several key modifications which have raised power to a maximum of 310 ps @ 6300 rpm (310 hp for US Market) and peak torque to 36.8 kg/m @ 4700 rpm"
 Quote:
I have already made my points on the rest.
Yea, you did a great job. Except Hyundai Motor Company's Powertrain R&D Center is located in Namyang, Korea and the majority of your "points" were nothing but baseless speculation.
 
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