the best synth oil is what

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I believe that M1 blends their oils for superior profitability at the expense of a lot of other characteristics!

I am sure all of these companies are interested in profitability, especially those who get 100% of their profits blending and marketing refined products (as opposed to EM, and Shell who make most of their money producing crude oil and natural gas). But do you have proof that M1 makes more compromises in this regard than anyone else? In terms of quantity of expensive ingredients such as PAO, M1 seems to be near the top of the heap in that regard, even when compared to Schaeffer's (and probably several other of the "boutique" oils), not to mention all the other major oil companies.

Now, if you want to argue that EM are a bunch of incompetent fools who don't know as much about motor oil compared to some fo the smaller companies, that would make more sense based on the MSDS's which show a fairly high percentage of expensive PAO in M1 oils (but of course you would have to show evidence that the EM engineers are a bunch incompetents because I am not willing to take your word for it).

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Mark888
Mobil 1 has at least 15 different synthetic oils sold in the US alone (not counting a few only sold in EU like the ESP line). So I don't think they are trying to meet every spec under the sun with every oil.


What U.S. gasoline spec doesn't M1 5W-30 meet?

The AFE line is still M1, how does the formula emphasize fuel economy and reduced friction any more than the pre-AFE 0W-30 and 0W-20? I'm not interested in catchy marketing blurbs.

How does the AFE line do in Seq IVA? Does it provide better low temperature protection than the 5W-30?

 

[StevieC]

Mark... Calm down... I was joking... I realize now that the

wasn't there...

I like M1 products... I'm beginning to think you work at XOM.

 

[farrarfan1]

This is the best thread ever. Best question, best answers and best jokes. Best of everything rolled into one neat package.You guys are the best.

 

[Tribeca]

The arrogance displayed in this forum really amazes me. Not everyone is an oil pro, so cut us newbies some slack. We are here to learn, and put downs really hinder the education we all seek. It is easy to get confused, especially when manufacturers frequently advertise they are the best, so instead of negative comments, how about some helpful, factual information.

 

[StevieC]

Perhaps some reading of threads that are already here would help to cut down on the people who flame others for posting what they think is "Newbie" question.

I'm not sticking up for the ones who do the flaming and think they should just ignore the thread if they have nothing nice to say, but I can sort of see their frustrations...

The board has been here for a while and there is lots of information here that is available with a simple search (which I know isn't always the best for returning results) and/or using the Google search: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/search.html

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Mark... Calm down... I was joking... I realize now that the

wasn't there...

I like M1 products... I'm beginning to think you work at XOM.

I get tired of denying that I work at XOM. Never did and don't now. Don't own any XOM stock either (usually overpriced relative to other oil companies).

I have never even said M1 is better than synthetic other oils. I only seek out accurate information, and try to dispel myths about PAO content. I even agree that one can make a very good synthetic motor oil with relatively modest amounts of PAO/Ester and mostly Group III stock.

A while back, I thought like everyone else that the higher priced "boutique" oils must be better than the majors. After all, they cost more, sometimes a lot more. Maybe some are better, I don't really know, but it is now clear that some of them like Schaeffer's generally have less PAO than M1, and that Royal Purple has been reprimanded for unsubstantiated claims, so the "bloom" is starting to fade. I also have some doubts about the advertising claims and certifications of the one sold through "dealers."

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: Tribeca
The arrogance displayed in this forum really amazes me. Not everyone is an oil pro, so cut us newbies some slack. We are here to learn, and put downs really hinder the education we all seek. It is easy to get confused, especially when manufacturers frequently advertise they are the best, so instead of negative comments, how about some helpful, factual information.

Just ignore the flamers. It comes with the Internet and from people who have no life outside this forum.

But if you are here to learn, beware. There are more myths perpetrated on this forum about motor oil than just about any I have ever seen, so at best you are likely to end up very confused with the variety of opinions.

 

[StevieC]

Mark,

I was kidding about the XOM... I spend a lot of time here (no comments needed everyone) and I noticed that you were being picked on about possibly working for XOM. I believe it not to be the case, but thought I would rattle your chain anyways...

I like M1 products, they did an awesome job in my current engine during the warranty period that I used them. I switched to Amsoil because I was able to eliminate the high iron levels in my UOA with it and it seemed to stand up to a longer OCI than M1 did in my application.

This doesn't mean in anyway that M1 is inferior, or that Amsoil is better than M1 in all cases... What it means is that my engine "seems" to "prefer" Amsoil over the M1 from what I can see.

I have always said that in my new vehicle I will use M1 again and see what the UOA numbers look like and see how it holds up amongst the other choices out there... If Amsoil is the winner, great, if not great too... I could care less.

What's important to me is engine longevity and the real test is time... Not a UOA or what my psychological feeling is, but I do sleep better knowing that Amsoil does stand up better that M1 in my application and so that is what I fill my crankcase with at the moment.

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
What U.S. gasoline spec doesn't M1 5W-30 meet?

The AFE line is still M1, how does the formula emphasize fuel economy and reduced friction any more than the pre-AFE 0W-30 and 0W-20? I'm not interested in catchy marketing blurbs.

How does the AFE line do in Seq IVA? Does it provide better low temperature protection than the 5W-30?

I assume you mean oil spec, not gasoline.

M1 5W-30 does not meet the BMW, VW, MB, etc specs that their 0W-40 does meet.

With regard to the AFE name for 0W-30 and 0W-20, you are correct that these oils first came out without the AFE name (according to the M1 FAQ page), but that does not obviate the fact that they were originally designed for reduced friction and better fuel economy. This can be seen in the difference in fuel mileage between M1 5W-30 and M1 0W-30. The M1 0W-30 AFE is also a different formula than the original M1 European formula 0W-30 (you can see both 0W-30 versions in the M1 Korean MSDS's), and the AFE is specifically designed for better fuel mileage with reduced friction, as opposed to longer OCI that are characteristic of the EU formulas.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Mark888

There are more myths perpetrated on this forum about motor oil than just about any I have ever seen....


Can we have a few examples?

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: Mark888
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Mark... Calm down... I was joking... I realize now that the

wasn't there...

I like M1 products... I'm beginning to think you work at XOM.

I get tired of denying that I work at XOM. Never did and don't now. Don't own any XOM stock either (usually overpriced relative to other oil companies).

I have never even said M1 is better than synthetic other oils. I only seek out accurate information, and try to dispel myths about PAO content. I even agree that one can make a very good synthetic motor oil with relatively modest amounts of PAO/Ester and mostly Group III stock.

A while back, I thought like everyone else that the higher priced "boutique" oils must be better than the majors. After all, they cost more, sometimes a lot more. Maybe some are better, I don't really know, but it is now clear that some of them like Schaeffer's generally have less PAO than M1, and that Royal Purple has been reprimanded for unsubstantiated claims, so the "bloom" is starting to fade. I also have some doubts about the advertising claims and certifications of the one sold through "dealers."


Royal Purple 15w40 has Grp III, Grp IV, and Grp V. Not sure about their other oils but most likely they contain the same base stocks.

By the way EHC-60 is Exxon Mobils Grp III base stock. So no need to down talk RP.

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Can we have a few examples? [of myths about oil]

I already gave some, but here goes:

1. That boutique oil are better than those from the majors because they cost more, have better R&D, make their own ingredients, don't care as much about profits (take your pick of any of these).
2. That majors spend more per quart-sold on marketing/advertising than the boutique oils (OK, maybe Castrol is the exception with their recent Edge fiasco).
3. That M1 is a group III oil.
4. That the only advantage of synthetic oils is a longer OCI.
5. That the best way (or even a good way) to determine the amount of engine protection provided by an oil is to do an UOA.
6. That all 5W-30 oils (pick any advertised viscosity) have the same viscosity.
7. That oils which provide the best high temperature engine protection have the lowest friction.
8. That there is one best oil, regardless of the application it is to be used for, and regardless of oil recommendations from the engine manufacturers as to what should be used.

All of the above are either false, or substantially untrue, IMO.

 

[Pablo]

You wrote:

Quote:
There are more myths perpetrated on this forum about motor oil than just about any I have ever seen....


THAT is a crock of doo-doo. See below.

Originally Posted By: Mark888


1. That boutique oil are better than those from the majors because they cost more, have better R&D, make their own ingredients, don't care as much about profits (take your pick of any of these).
2. That majors spend more per quart-sold on marketing/advertising than the boutique oils (OK, maybe Castrol is the exception with their recent Edge fiasco).
3. That M1 is a group III oil.
4. That the only advantage of synthetic oils is a longer OCI.
5. That the best way (or even a good way) to determine the amount of engine protection provided by an oil is to do an UOA.
6. That all 5W-30 oils (pick any advertised viscosity) have the same viscosity.
7. That oils which provide the best high temperature engine protection have the lowest friction.
8. That there is one best oil, regardless of the application it is to be used for, and regardless of oil recommendations from the engine manufacturers as to what should be used.

All of the above are either false, or substantially untrue, IMO.


1) I've never actually seen any of the four points stated and argued, but there is some bits of truth in there. But you have some real khrap in there as well.
a) to some extent there is truth in the higher the cost the more esters, and the less ring build up, ie the more the oil costs the better it is. Now, do people really need this? I can argue, well maybe - all these folks running AutoRx at 100K with gummy rings....
b) I've never seen anyone say that, in fact on the contrary people say ExxonMobil has better R&D ALL that darn time!! So that one you just made up.
c) Who said the smaller companies make their own ingredients? So that one you just made up as well.
d)They ALL care about profits. Who here said they don't? Another made up one by you fertile imagination.

2) No one said "per quart". Again, proof? Lots of folks know the majors spend a LOT of dough on ads.

3) There is some valid arguments on both sides for certain grades of M1 containing Group III. Personally I don't care, but this site is NOT perpetuating anything - there is no definitive proof either way, and if anything some solid proof that certain grades of M1 contain Group III. NOT ALL M1.

4) I have to agree - you have a point with this one. But again I don't think the site perpetuates this - just some very forceful posters who have either not tried synthetic, used it once, etc or have a real agenda for low price oil.

5) I have to agree - For many years it was true and to this day it sticks. But this one is slowly changing right here on this site. More to life than a single UOA.

6) No one other than a newbie asking a question has ever said " 5W-30 oils have the same viscosity" on BITOG. You pulled that out of your arse. Quite the contrary on BITOG.

7) Another made up one, please a reference - in fact I've seen the contrary. Often times it's posted - and in fact if you read the Molakule posts and QA threads that what is best for protection, if often a trade off.

8) Who here, other than a newbie, has said there is one best oil? And even the sticking point of this thread is exactly that!!

Again you accused this web site of "perpetrat(ing) myths". And you made a up a bunch of stuff.

 

[NHHEMI]

And the count down to the Mod Hammer falling has begun....

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

 

[Pablo]

Why would the mods have an issue with my post??

 

[buster]

Quote:
1. That boutique oil are better than those from the majors because they cost more, have better R&D, make their own ingredients, don't care as much about profits (take your pick of any of these).


This is a common misconception. I know people that think because they are mail ordering oil, it is therefore better than what they can get at a local store. It's really not always the case. In fact, Amsoil has proven this through their white papeers. RP, Torco and in some cases Redline perform poorly in certain tests.

Small blenders are likely to have a very generic formulation that can be a few generations behind the major formulators. Take Amsoil ASL/ATM. Pre-GF4 they used Mg, higher ZDP. Now they are using Boron/Moly @ identical levels M1 was using 4 years ago. Mobil 1 was using these additives long before Amsoil was.

I've heard people say that "Synthetic" is about as useful of word as "organic" is with food. Plastic related components, such as in high levels of VI improver, PIB & diesters are synthetic, but there are better things to put in your lubricants now. But those better components, specifically high-vis PAOs and non-ester cosolvents, do cost more.

 

[Pablo]

I agree with you buster to some extent, but does THIS site propagate/promulgate this? I think both sides get equal air time on BITOG!

A smaller blender can be a LOT more flexible and can actually use newer technologies much sooner….it does not mean they do!

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
I agree with you buster to some extent, but does THIS site propagate/promulgate this? I think both sides get equal air time on BITOG!

A smaller blender can be a LOT more flexible and can actually use newer technologies much sooner….it does not mean they do!


I agree, I don't think the site propagates this at all. I think it's more from just individuals.

Smaller blenders can be more flexible and adjust quicker. I agree. I think with Amsoil, this is evident by their SSO/ASM oils and maybe others. I hold Amsoil in much higher regard than most other small boutique blenders.

Amsoil's own white papers really open my eyes to how poorly some smaller boutique brands are. They are often nothing special.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Mark888
I assume you mean oil spec, not gasoline.


Gasoline (passenger car) oil spec, naturally.

Quote:
M1 5W-30 does not meet the BMW, VW, MB, etc specs that their 0W-40 does meet.


M1 0W-40 is essentially a Euro formulation, it only meets ILSAC GF-3 and it's not an energy conserving oil.

Quote:
With regard to the AFE name for 0W-30 and 0W-20, you are correct that these oils first came out without the AFE name (according to the M1 FAQ page), but that does not obviate the fact that they were originally designed for reduced friction and better fuel economy. This can be seen in the difference in fuel mileage between M1 5W-30 and M1 0W-30. The M1 0W-30 AFE is also a different formula than the original M1 European formula 0W-30 (you can see both 0W-30 versions in the M1 Korean MSDS's), and the AFE is specifically designed for better fuel mileage with reduced friction, as opposed to longer OCI that are characteristic of the EU formulas.


How does the AFE line have reduced friction compared to any other Energy Conserving oil?