TGMO 0w20, 6033 mi, 2012 Honda Civic R18

[SnPb]

I performed another UOA on this vehicle as many of the UOA's on the R18 show high Aluminum. In this case the Silicon is coming down, but the Aluminum did go up a bit.

Code:


OIL Honda Toyota Univ

GRADE 0w20 0w20 Avg

MILES IN USE 5742 6033

MILES 9045 15078

SAMPLE TAKEN 11/10/12 6/9/13



ALUMINUM 14 25 8

CHROMIUM 0 0 0

IRON 8 12 9

COPPER 5 4 2

LEAD 0 0 0

TIN 2 1 1

MOLYBDENUM 662 185 70

NICKEL 0 0 0

MANGANESE 1 1 1

SILVER 0 0 0

TITANIUM 0 0 2

POTASSIUM 5 0 19

BORON 35 10 40

SILICON 49 26 16

SODIUM 0 5 45

CALCIUM 1850 2200 2230

MAGNESIUM 7 20 113

PHOSPHORUS 697 767 662

ZINC 839 934 774

BARIUM 0 0 0



SUS VIS 210ºF 51.4 52.2

cSt @ 212ºF 7.70 7.94

FLASHPOINT ºF 405 410

FUEL
ANTIFREEZE 0.0 0.0

WATER 0.0 0.0

INSOLUBLES 0.3 0.2

TBN 0.2 2.6

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: SnPb
In this case the Silicon is coming down, but the Aluminum did go up a bit.



It is probably shedding break-in metals.

 

[SLCraig]

0.2 TBN after 6K on the Honda oil? Seems way low!
Tons of moly in that stuff. I never did a UOA on my R18 but I used Pennzoil yellow bottle for my break in oil (lots of moly) and I think it probably wasn't a bad choice.

 

[Doog]

Do yourself a favor and switch to Pennzoil Platinum.

 

[dparm]

What are your driving habits? That TBN is really low for that kind of mileage. Did you go past the OLM's "change oil now" notification?

 

[mr_diy]

Looks like the OC carried over a fare amount of Honda oil, based on the 2x normal moly in the TGMO. Did you not change the filter?
Hopefully the high values are still from break-in.

 

[SnPb]

I didn't perform a UOA on the initial oil change, but did on the second and third oil changes. The first UOA in the table was Honda 0w20 SM made by Idemitsu and the second was TGMO 0w20 SN made by Exxon Mobil. The OLM read 15% on the Honda Oil and 30% on the TGMO oil. Honda branded Oil Filters made by Honeywell-Fram were used in both cases. The current fill is Pennzoil Platinum with a Purolator PureONE Filter.
I also changed the Air Filter as someone on the board, gpshumway I think, was able to bring his Silicon levels down by doing so. The new Air Filter is a Wix. I don't think Purolator makes one for this car and, amazingly, there were no Fram Air Filters in stock at any of the stores that I checked.
This car sees mostly short trips of 5 miles or so.

 

[dave1251]

May I make a suggestion. Stick to one brand of oil if you are going to try establish a trend. All I can see from the data is the OLM is fine to use if you are using TGMO and the slight elevation of Aluminum is likely because your engine is still breaking it.

But then again you engine is so new a UOA is nearly worthless at this point and I am likely overacting.

 

[gpshumway]

It's possible that the Al is just break-in wear, but it still seems too high for 15k miles, especially considering it went up since the last OCI. Your silicon levels are also higher than typical (like mine) and it's been long enough that there shouldn't be much RTV left in the oil. Hopefully the new air filter helps. I haven't written up my air filter research formally yet, I'm waiting for my next UOA for some more proof that I've solved the problem. Currently 40% on the OLM.

How did the perimeter seals look on the WIX filter? The filter I used was a NAPA Pro Select. I know the NAPA Gold is a WIX, but I don't know about the Pro Select. The Gold had a soft rubber seal, while the Pro Select was both stiffer and thicker, indicating a tighter fit in the housing, which is why I chose the ProSelect. The filter element looked better on the gold, but the perimeter seals looked better on the ProSelect.

The OEM Filtech filter had excellent build quality, but the perimeter seals were very stiff and also thin compared to the NAPA ProSelect. When I coated the OEM filter seals with petroleum jelly and re-installed the filter, inconsistent sealing with the housing was evident. It's not the best evidence, but it lead me to believe my high Si levels were the result of air leaking around the filter past the perimeter seals.

I examined Fram, Purolator Classic, NAPA Gold, NAPA ProSelect, and of course the OEM Filtech filter in my quest. It seems manufacturers are of two minds on the perimeter seal style, some are stiff rubber like a nitrile o-ring, others are soft foam rubber like an automotive door seal. The Fram, Purolator Classic and NAPA Gold were all foam rubber, with the Fram having the thickest seals. The Filtech and ProSelect had stiff rubber seals with the ProSelect being substantially thicker.

It seems the 2012 R18 Civic takes a different air filter than the 2006-2011 cars. Purolator lists the 26171 filter for a 2012 and the 25653 for the 2011. Hopefully the new filter be available locally for you soon.

TGMO seems to do OK in this engine. Do we know if Honda re-calibrated the OLM for 2012 with the switch to 0w20 synthetic? It sounds like your driving is harder on oil than mine, though you're without the sub-freezing temps. My car goes ~6,500 miles in extra-urban driving wit the OLM calibrated for conventional/blend. TGMO is likely fine for 10k mi in a Toyota, but they're generally very easy on oil. I sure wouldn't run it that far in another application without UOA confirmation.

 

[SnPb]

I agree that elevated wear occurring during break in should be over by now. The Aluminum number isn't huge, but the fact that it went up is disturbing. I will perform another UOA in 6,000 miles and see if things have improved. Hopefully the new Air Filter helps. If not I may replace it with a Fram.
The Wix Filter looks substantially like the Honda/Filtech OEM Filter. The perimeter seal is virtually identical. It is a U cross section elastomer, with ridges on it, that slips over the hard plastic frame of the filter. I suppose that I could bond it to the frame with adhesive, but I will just change to the Fram if it has a foam seal bonded to the frame.
The TGMO/Mobil oil seems fine, but the Honda/Idemitsu oil makes Valvoline Synpower look like an extended change oil by comparison.

 

[panthermike]

Really surprised by the low TBN of the Honda oil. No way I would go the distance with the OLM and that oil. Mine is on pace for roughly 9K according to the OLM.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: SnPb
I agree that elevated wear occurring during break in should be over by now. The Aluminum number isn't huge, but the fact that it went up is disturbing. I will perform another UOA in 6,000 miles and see if things have improved. Hopefully the new Air Filter helps. If not I may replace it with a Fram.
The Wix Filter looks substantially like the Honda/Filtech OEM Filter. The perimeter seal is virtually identical. It is a U cross section elastomer, with ridges on it, that slips over the hard plastic frame of the filter. I suppose that I could bond it to the frame with adhesive, but I will just change to the Fram if it has a foam seal bonded to the frame.
The TGMO/Mobil oil seems fine, but the Honda/Idemitsu oil makes Valvoline Synpower look like an extended change oil by comparison.


Break in metals can shed for 20,000 miles or more in some vehicles, depending many things. So I wouldn't sweat the Aluminum just yet. However I have my doubts about the OLM and that oil holding up until an oil change signal is triggered by it. JMO

 

[gpshumway]

While break-in metals can shed for 20k miles, they should generally trend down over that time. When elevated wear metals, particularly Al (from piston skirts) are accompanied by elevated Silicon (from ingested grit), some concern is warranted.

As to the OLM, this engine was introduced along with the OLM in the 2006 Civic, by now there are a large number of Civics which have lived full, healthy lives by following it. It's generally pretty conservative, yielding OCIs of 5,000-7,500 miles based on usage. The question is whether the OLM was re-calibrated in 2012 when Honda changed their oil recommendation from 5w20 conventional/blend to 0w20 synthetic. If the OLM was re-calibrated for longer drain synthetics, in the absence of UOA I would tend toward longer drain oils like M1 AFE over unknown OEM oils like TGMO and the Mazda oil. This UOA seems to indicate that TGMO would be ok to marginal at the full OLM OCI.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
The question is whether the OLM was re-calibrated in 2012 when Honda changed their oil recommendation from 5w20 conventional/blend to 0w20 synthetic. If the OLM was re-calibrated for longer drain synthetics, in the absence of UOA I would tend toward longer drain oils like M1 AFE over unknown OEM oils like TGMO and the Mazda oil. This UOA seems to indicate that TGMO would be ok to marginal at the full OLM OCI.

The logic of deviating from an OEM oil because you think the OLM may have been recalibrated to an OC period beyond what the OEM oil can handle escapes me. That really is quite a claim suggesting a lot of sludged up engines are going to start showing up since most owners to follow the OLM and use OEM oil.
Even if it true, which I doubt, simply changing the oil at some point before the OLM indicates no life remains would make a lot more sense than using a heavier aftermarket oil.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
While break-in metals can shed for 20k miles, they should generally trend down over that time. When elevated wear metals, particularly Al (from piston skirts) are accompanied by elevated Silicon (from ingested grit), some concern is warranted.

As to the OLM, this engine was introduced along with the OLM in the 2006 Civic, by now there are a large number of Civics which have lived full, healthy lives by following it. It's generally pretty conservative, yielding OCIs of 5,000-7,500 miles based on usage. The question is whether the OLM was re-calibrated in 2012 when Honda changed their oil recommendation from 5w20 conventional/blend to 0w20 synthetic. If the OLM was re-calibrated for longer drain synthetics, in the absence of UOA I would tend toward longer drain oils like M1 AFE over unknown OEM oils like TGMO and the Mazda oil. This UOA seems to indicate that TGMO would be ok to marginal at the full OLM OCI.


The 2012 Civic 1.8L I service is on-track for a 10-11k interval from mostly highway use. Same goes for the 2008 CRV and 2009 Fit. I think some of the newer Hondas OLMs are calibrated for a longer interval. I used to service a 2008 TSX which would have the OLM go off every 5-5.5k consistently.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The logic of deviating from an OEM oil because you think the OLM may have been recalibrated to an OC period beyond what the OEM oil can handle escapes me. That really is quite a claim suggesting a lot of sludged up engines are going to start showing up since most owners to follow the OLM and use OEM oil.
Even if it true, which I doubt, simply changing the oil at some point before the OLM indicates no life remains would make a lot more sense than using a heavier aftermarket oil.


Toyota Genuine Motor Oil is not the OEM oil for a Honda!

And neither is the Idemitsu API SM 0w20 the OEM oil for this application. Honda changed their OEM 0w20 oil from Idemitsu to Philips 66 at the same time they changed their non-hybrid oil recommendation from 5w20 to 0w20. My own experience with the Idemitsu oil in this very engine indicates it has marginal long-drain capability, as does the OP's experience with that oil. TGMO had a TBN of only 2.6 with 30% remaining life indicated by the OLM, indicating it may be marginal in this application depending on how long the TBN stabilizes.

Quite the claim? I'm simply saying we shouldn't substitute other manufacturer's OEM oils without taking some basic precautions, like doing UOA. What's so outrageous about that? Using the Philips 66 0w20 in the Honda bottle would be entirely reasonable, and I never said otherwise.

What's more, my comments have nothing to do with viscosity, just TBN. I mention M1 AFE because Exxon/Mobil say it's capable of 10,000 mi OCIs in a variety of applications and it's the most redily available 0w20 in the USA. IMO, If an owner is not going to use the OEM P66 oil, M1 AFE (or PP) is a safer choice than an OEM oil from someone other than Honda.

As to the OLM, several OEMs and Honda in particular have a recent history of mis-calibrated OLMs which have resulted in sludged engines. A cautious owner can very reasonably take some steps to ensure they're not the victim of an OEM mis-calibration. My comments were to reassure demarpaint that the Civic R18 application has proven well calibrated, but that there was a potential recent change with the switch to 0w20 oil. We have simply not seen enough UOAs from 2012+ Civics to know for sure if the OLM was re-calibrated. SnPb's car going 6,000 short trip miles with an OLM reading of 30% seems to indicate it has been re-calibrated. My 2011 Civic sees much longer trips and the OLM is usually down to ~15% by 6,000 miles.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
The 2012 Civic 1.8L I service is on-track for a 10-11k interval from mostly highway use. Same goes for the 2008 CRV and 2009 Fit. I think some of the newer Hondas OLMs are calibrated for a longer interval. I used to service a 2008 TSX which would have the OLM go off every 5-5.5k consistently.


Between you, panthermike, and SnPb I think it's safe to say the OLM has been re-calibrated. The other applications are interesting, but since they're all different engine series, I put less stock in them. The 1.8l Civic is the only R-Series application in the USA.

 

[kschachn]

Well and neither is M1, as you mention. So why would using Toyota oil be so dangerous as to "require" a UOA before use?

Originally Posted By: gpshumway


Toyota Genuine Motor Oil is not the OEM oil for a Honda!

And neither is the Idemitsu API SM 0w20 the OEM oil for this application. Honda changed their OEM 0w20 oil from Idemitsu to Philips 66 at the same time they changed their non-hybrid oil recommendation from 5w20 to 0w20. My own experience with the Idemitsu oil in this very engine indicates it has marginal long-drain capability, as does the OP's experience with that oil. TGMO had a TBN of only 2.6 with 30% remaining life indicated by the OLM, indicating it may be marginal in this application depending on how long the TBN stabilizes.

Quite the claim? I'm simply saying we shouldn't substitute other manufacturer's OEM oils without taking some basic precautions, like doing UOA. What's so outrageous about that? Using the Philips 66 0w20 in the Honda bottle would be entirely reasonable, and I never said otherwise.

What's more, my comments have nothing to do with viscosity, just TBN. I mention M1 AFE because Exxon/Mobil say it's capable of 10,000 mi OCIs in a variety of applications and it's the most redily available 0w20 in the USA. IMO, If an owner is not going to use the OEM P66 oil, M1 AFE (or PP) is a safer choice than an OEM oil from someone other than Honda.

As to the OLM, several OEMs and Honda in particular have a recent history of mis-calibrated OLMs which have resulted in sludged engines. A cautious owner can very reasonably take some steps to ensure they're not the victim of an OEM mis-calibration. My comments were to reassure demarpaint that the Civic R18 application has proven well calibrated, but that there was a potential recent change with the switch to 0w20 oil. We have simply not seen enough UOAs from 2012+ Civics to know for sure if the OLM was re-calibrated. SnPb's car going 6,000 short trip miles with an OLM reading of 30% seems to indicate it has been re-calibrated. My 2011 Civic sees much longer trips and the OLM is usually down to ~15% by 6,000 miles.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well and neither is M1, as you mention. So why would using Toyota oil be so dangerous as to "require" a UOA before use?

Exactly, in fact it's viscosity characteristic much more closely approximate the OEM oil that Honda Canada specifies. Yes the 200 VI Idemitsu 0W-20 is still what Honda/Acura Canada uses although Honda USA switched to CoP. Even so, the CoP made 0W-20 is still lighter (higher VI and lower HTHSV) than M1 0W-20 and all OTC aftermarket 0W-20s.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well and neither is M1, as you mention. So why would using Toyota oil be so dangerous as to "require" a UOA before use?


Maybe I need a refresher course here, but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to conduct a Used Oil Analysis without using the oil first. I never said we should do the analysis before using it, if I'd meant Virgin Oil Analysis, I'd have said VOA.

I'm simply saying that while Toyota may have spec'd TGMO to last 10,000 miles in a Toyota, we shouldn't use it blindly for long intervals in a Honda without confirming that it works at those intervals using UOA (which SnPb is doing). Going too long on a change or two won't hurt, but it may be less than ideal long-term. Being a multi-platform oil, M1 AFE (or PP, or GT-1) is designed to go 10,000 miles in a variety of applications, and therefore the 10,000 mile recommendation from Mobil is likely more conservative than that from Toyota (who's engines are generally very easy on oil).

I say this not for the benefit of the OP, but for others who may read the thread while searching for good oil for their new car. After all that's one of the primary purposes of this forum, to provide a library of UOAs to assist people who haven't developed a history of their own.

With trips primarily five miles or less, SnPb's usage is at the extreme end of short trip driving, and IMO warrants some small measure of caution in oil selection. Why is this position controversial?