I have access to some TGA equipment and while I was doing some work on a project at work I decided to make a crude 200C Nock test and run a couple of tests when no one was using after hours. My test was pretty standard. A TGA basically measures weight change v. temp. so I made a test which held my sample at 200C for 1 hour and then analyized the weight change. The test really ends up being 63 mins as I have about three minutes to get to temp. SO far two tests finished: Royal Purple 10w-30 after one hour left a residue of 66%-so it lost 34% of its mass. Castrol Syntec 10w-30, same test -Residue of 73%, so a loss of mass of 27%. Just a couple of oils I had laying around the garage. I plan on continuing to test a few oils after hours in my pursuit of more oil knowledge, I will post as I get more results.
TGA scan--Homemade Noack test
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Interesting. If your procedure is tight and consistent, you will have some useful comparisons. I can hardly wait for the Valvoline.
The tests should be very consistent, as I am using a TA Insturments TGA which is extremely expensive. To give you and idea as to its accuracy by weight, my samples will read something like this--Starting weight 15.031 mg--final weight-10.973 mg. The stest ramps quickly to 140C, then overshoots because of the quick heat ramp, however I then ramp at a set 20C/min to 200 then hold isothermal at 200C--the proceedure to get to 200C is exactly 3 mins so the total test is 63 mins. There are ASTM methods for Noack tests using a TGA but I din't want to pay the $ to get the ASTM method--I figure this is pretty close to what I am looking for regardless.
Thanks for posting.
Since you have access to the test equipment, why not follow the ASTM D-5800 protocol? I think Noack volatility for motor oils is tested at 250 deg C.
I think that you have a good test set-up and procedure! I'm glad that you are not running the oil up to 250C. That is way too hot - an unrealistic temperature in my opinion. I think that 200C is acceptable, but is still pushing the high-limit of "realistic".
I suggest the following oils for your comparison:
Pennzoil Dino 10W-30
Pennzoil Dino 5W-30
Valvoline Dino 10W-30
Valvoline Dino 5W-30
Mobil 1 Synth 10W-30
Mobil 1 Synth 5W-30
Mobil 1 Synth 0W-20
German Castrol (of course)
I think that these oils will cover most of the oil usage & "emotions" on this board. It is clear that this is going to cost some money. Is that a problem?
The key is to do every test exactly the same way. You have a good procedure, so please carefully stick to it.
I wonder if your characterization time & effort is better spent when the new-grade oils (SM?) are introduced in the near future.
I think that it is important to use the latest offering of whatever you characterize. Testing 2-year-old oil is probably not useful, for example.
Thanks!
I suggest the following oils for your comparison:
Pennzoil Dino 10W-30
Pennzoil Dino 5W-30
Valvoline Dino 10W-30
Valvoline Dino 5W-30
Mobil 1 Synth 10W-30
Mobil 1 Synth 5W-30
Mobil 1 Synth 0W-20
German Castrol (of course)
I think that these oils will cover most of the oil usage & "emotions" on this board. It is clear that this is going to cost some money. Is that a problem?
The key is to do every test exactly the same way. You have a good procedure, so please carefully stick to it.
I wonder if your characterization time & effort is better spent when the new-grade oils (SM?) are introduced in the near future.
I think that it is important to use the latest offering of whatever you characterize. Testing 2-year-old oil is probably not useful, for example.
Thanks!
So far I have just tested what I have been using in my vehicles, and a couple of inexpensive dinos. After seeing the results I am getting at 200C I find it hard to believe that industry uses 250C unless they are running under an atmosphere other than air, i.e. Nitrogen. I suspect that my testing will be drawn out over a couple of months as I am basically using work equipment when available, so I have to be careful of how often I run things and what the traffic on the machine looks like.
So far
Syntec--27% loss
RoyalPurple-34% loss
Exxon Superflo--40% loss (238C-FP)
Havoline--59% loss (258C-FP)
Citgo UL-HM--63% loss (238C-FP)
ALl above are 10w-30 and the Flash Points above are what's listed on spec. sheets from said companies.
So far
Syntec--27% loss
RoyalPurple-34% loss
Exxon Superflo--40% loss (238C-FP)
Havoline--59% loss (258C-FP)
Citgo UL-HM--63% loss (238C-FP)
ALl above are 10w-30 and the Flash Points above are what's listed on spec. sheets from said companies.
ANother one to add. Looks like Chevron and Havoline are not exactly the same as of yet. I noticed as I had both in glass vials next to each other that the Chevron was much darker looking than the Havoline. ANyway, the chevron showed a 42% loss, not bad so far with my test method. Like I said before, after these tests I have run I have to wonder what atmosphere the ASTM test is run in, I just cannot believe it is air, if anyone knows feel free. I will post as I add more oils, looks like it will be a slow compilation.
Thanks for providing this info to us. 15mg sounds like the weight of a single drop, maybe somewhat less? That must be an amazingly sensitive scale to read out to the nearest 100,000th of a gram!
Yeah, it is from TA Instruments, probably the largest supplier of Thermal Analysis equipment in the world, and it doesn't come cheap.
Here's some interesting info for comparison purposes:
http://oilspecialist.com/performancetests/g1971/
Many Amsoil sites seem to have this same info.
Redline says that NOACK Evaporation Loss,
1hr @ 482°F (250°C), is 8% for their 5W20 and 6% for all of the rest (5W30 through 15W50). Source:
http://www.redlineoil.com/pdf/4.pdf
http://oilspecialist.com/performancetests/g1971/
Many Amsoil sites seem to have this same info.
Redline says that NOACK Evaporation Loss,
1hr @ 482°F (250°C), is 8% for their 5W20 and 6% for all of the rest (5W30 through 15W50). Source:
http://www.redlineoil.com/pdf/4.pdf
Yeah, and when I see the posted % loss (noack) for a lot of the mineral oils ou there, I have yet to see one over 15%. Based on what I am seeing at 200C, I can only conclude that these test cannot be tested in air, but must be in a Nitrogen atmosphere. That, or the equipment that I am using that was just recently clibrated is already in need of service.
A bump to the top and please keep us updated . If you need 3 ounces of this and that oil to avoid buying quarts let me know . Be glad to send some different oils .
I have a modest proposal: How about including Walmart's 10-30 conventional oil and fleet 15-40 oil. Some of us sceptical cheapskates actually use this stuff. Maybe we would as a result become enlightened regarding the error of our ways and become converted true believers in high-priced, heavily and expensively hyped "premium" oils. (Or maybe not?)
My $0.02
My $0.02
Only addition, a 52% loss of 10w-40 Castrol GTX, the only 10w-40 I had in the garage. Motorbike, If you have some oils you would like me to check when I can feel free to contact me, as I am out of everything I had around. I would like to do some more synthetics, both PAO & G-III, as I was amused by the fact that the Royal Purple seemed to lose out to the G-III Syntec, however, as I usually run non-syns I haven't ran out to spend the $4-$5 /qt for the drop of oil I need for the test.
On another forum a fellow ran TGA's and the Syntec 10w-40 was better in terms of less loss than the Delvac 1 so I can see where the Castrol Syntec 10w-30 might hold up well against other oils .
Open up to allow PM's so I can get an address and I'll send you a load of sample oils of the synthetic type .
Open up to allow PM's so I can get an address and I'll send you a load of sample oils of the synthetic type .
Another Dino to add, Citgo Supergard 10W-30(already have done the UltraLife High Mileage above). 50% loss, not bad compared to the Dinos I have looked at so far, especially since I just bought some for $0.67 a quart. Motorbike is being kind enough to send me some small samples, and I will add as I can. I am also thinking about doing some runs under Nitrogen atmosphere to see how/if everything trends the same.
My source that turned me onto the Synergyn oil just contacted me to remind me to send some of it along with the other oils .
I trust these guys when it comes to the synthetic oil recommendations given to me because ............ just because
[ August 24, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
I trust these guys when it comes to the synthetic oil recommendations given to me because ............ just because
[ August 24, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
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