Tesla Free Thanksgiving Charging in CA

[DwightFrye]

I have a 1400 sq. foot home that uses propane for the stove, dryer and furnace. Everything else is electric. It is a fairly new construction and has all the latest energy efficient features including led recessed lighting throughout the home. My electric bill averages around $60 a month except in the summer if I run the A/C a lot and then it can get up to $90. I am getting a senior discount on my rate. My propane bill is another story, it jumped about 30% on the last fill. I'll be burning more firewood and wearing my longjohns this winter for sure.

Wouldn't a solar panel system, even with assorted rebates run somewhere in the neighborhood of $7000 for a home of my size ?

 

[JeffKeryk]

I have a 1400 sq. foot home that uses propane for the stove, dryer and furnace. Everything else is electric. It is a fairly new construction and has all the latest energy efficient features including led recessed lighting throughout the home. My electric bill averages around $60 a month except in the summer if I run the A/C a lot and then it can get up to $90. I am getting a senior discount on my rate. My propane bill is another story, it jumped about 30% on the last fill. I'll be burning more firewood and wearing my longjohns this winter for sure.

Wouldn't a solar panel system, even with assorted rebates run somewhere in the neighborhood of $7000 for a home of my size ?

Prices have dropped since I bought 3 years ago, but probably closer to $10K. Your solar project goes by expected demand and sunlight conditions. It might be fun to get an estimate. I ended up with Infinity Solar based in Rocklin. Costco Sunrun is excellent as well.

 

[CKN]

I did the math; solar is a no brainer for me. I am 3 years into solar and love it. Last month I paid under $3 for electricity; usually I pay around $9.
I got 30% off the solar project, including a new roof with the Federal Tax Credit. I should have these stupid low rates for the next 20+ years.
The Tesla gets me to break even faster.
And I got the newest LG panels and Enphase inverter.
I love my solar. You snooze you lose.

Without mentioning (your math) with lease or cash layout to say your electric bill is $3.00 really doesn't have any context. What is your break even time?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Without mentioning (your math) with lease or cash layout to say your electric bill is $3.00 really doesn't have any context. What is your break even time?

I don't have the exact calculations because that was over 3 years ago. The solar companies take your last couple years of bills and compare that to the cost of their recommended solar size (panels, inverters, etc). As a fiscal conservative, I use conservative numbers and asked for a ungrade (more panels) to avoid any surprises. I think the break even point was 6 to 7 years...
That term has been shortened due to charging the Tesla, home AC use (I rarely used it previously) and the electricity cost increases. Perhaps you know, we have some of the highest energy costs in the nation. The kicker was including the new roof in the "solar project" allowing for 30% tax credit. I think I paid $17K all in after the tax benefit. Additionally, my house value increased, but around here you pay for the zip code, not the house.
This was part of a plan I have now since completed. My goal was to have the house in the best condition, within reason, in case something happened to me. I wanted my wife to have as little as possible to deal with, just in case. Peace of mind, as they say.
I love my solar. One of the best improvements I have ever made. I'm sure prices are even better now.

PG&E charges about $15 per month to be connected to the grid. There are other incentives that bring my electricity bill to about $9 per month; last month is was a ridiculous $2.XX. Did I say I love my solar panels?
One mistake people have made is installing a too small system and are getting hit with $500 to $1000 yearly true up. Not me...

 

[OVERKILL]

I don't have the exact calculations because that was over 3 years ago. The solar companies take your last couple years of bills and compare that to the cost of their recommended solar size (panels, inverters, etc). As a fiscal conservative, I use conservative numbers and asked for a ungrade (more panels) to avoid any surprises. I think the break even point was 6 to 7 years...
That term has been shortened due to charging the Tesla, home AC use (I rarely used it previously) and the electricity cost increases. Perhaps you know, we have some of the highest energy costs in the nation. The kicker was including the new roof in the "solar project" allowing for 30% tax credit. I think I paid $17K all in after the tax benefit. Additionally, my house value increased, but around here you pay for the zip code, not the house.
This was part of a plan I have now since completed. My goal was to have the house in the best condition, within reason, in case something happened to me. I wanted my wife to have as little as possible to deal with, just in case. Peace of mind, as they say.
I love my solar. One of the best improvements I have ever made. I'm sure prices are even better now.

PG&E charges about $15 per month to be connected to the grid. There are other incentives that bring my electricity bill to about $9 per month; last month is was a ridiculous $2.XX. Did I say I love my solar panels?
One mistake people have made is installing a too small system and are getting hit with $500 to $1000 yearly true up. Not me...

You are on net metering clearly, is that a contract? Just noting that somebody else in the thread indicated that he's not on net metering, he's being paid what sounds like wholesale, which greatly impacts economics.

 

[PandaBear]

I have a 1400 sq. foot home that uses propane for the stove, dryer and furnace. Everything else is electric. It is a fairly new construction and has all the latest energy efficient features including led recessed lighting throughout the home. My electric bill averages around $60 a month except in the summer if I run the A/C a lot and then it can get up to $90. I am getting a senior discount on my rate. My propane bill is another story, it jumped about 30% on the last fill. I'll be burning more firewood and wearing my longjohns this winter for sure.

Wouldn't a solar panel system, even with assorted rebates run somewhere in the neighborhood of $7000 for a home of my size ?

I have a similar bill and similar size house and the solar guy told me (over their promotion free lunch) that it wouldn't work for me until I use a lot more electricity (i.e. have a bigger family).

The "cost" IMO need to include depreciation of the panel and the opportunity cost of the money you spend, so a more realistic number based on JeffKeryK's $10k would, over 25 years, be like $400 a year on depreciation and the $5k over 20 years (average between 0 to 20 for 10k, or 5k over 20 years) on opportunity cost (say S&P500 index fund), this opportunity cost may end up doubling the price, but so will electricity cost increase over the years. Nobody can predict how much this opportunity cost and electricity rate increase will be in your area.

p.s. Forgot to mention if you don't like to lose the opportunity cost, you can take out a loan and use the interest rate of the loan instead.

 

[JeffKeryk]

You are on net metering clearly, is that a contract? Just noting that somebody else in the thread indicated that he's not on net metering, he's being paid what sounds like wholesale, which greatly impacts economics.

I am not sure what you mean; there is no contract with PG&E. They measure what I use vs what I generate. There is a yearly true up in March. To be honest, I barely look at the bill and pay very little attention. I don't have the time or the understanding. My estimated true up is currently zero.
Perhaps this helps...

 

[PimTac]

With a twenty minute charge do you want to drive over Donner Pass to see the relatives?

Well do ya?


“The following morning they found the Tesla, buried in snow on the side of the road. The lifeless frozen bodies inside still staring at the touchscreen. They almost made it. “

 

[PandaBear]

I am not sure what you mean; there is no contract with PG&E. They measure what I use vs what I generate. There is a yearly true up in March. To be honest, I barely look at the bill and pay very little attention. I don't have the time or the understanding. My estimated true up is currently zero.
Perhaps this helps...
View attachment 79097

NEM stands for net energy metering. Without it you will be paying peak price during duck curve hours and then you get paid low price during morning bright sun low demand hours, so basically, without net metering you will be paying 46c/kwh during duck (4pm-9pm) curve and get paid 16c/kwh during the morning (if I understand the approximate pricing correctly).

 

[UncleDave]

With a twenty minute charge do you want to drive over Donner Pass to see the relatives?

Well do ya?


“The following morning they found the Tesla, buried in snow on the side of the road. The lifeless frozen bodies inside still staring at the touchscreen. They almost made it. “

With a supercharger station in truckee you can get a cup of hot joe from Safeway if you want or starbucks if you feel like dropping a fiver on coffee.

Either a vastly better call than freezing to death.

 

[PandaBear]

With a twenty minute charge do you want to drive over Donner Pass to see the relatives?

Well do ya?


“The following morning they found the Tesla, buried in snow on the side of the road. The lifeless frozen bodies inside still staring at the touchscreen. They almost made it. “

To be "fair" if you use EV to climb a mountain you get back maybe 50-75% of the energy going downhill. I do see Tesla in Tahoe once in a while with Bay Area dealers plate frame, so I am sure they somehow supercharge their way up the mountain. It is probably not for everyone and most people don't buy a ski trip vehicle when they buy a car at sea level, or if they have a family they will have 1 SUV with 4WD if they have any EV at all.

Why does everyone keep insisting every vehicle in every family must do everything? Why wouldn't people expect to have 1 for commute and 1 for utility like crew cab or minivan?

 

[OVERKILL]

I am not sure what you mean; there is no contract with PG&E. They measure what I use vs what I generate. There is a yearly true up in March. To be honest, I barely look at the bill and pay very little attention. I don't have the time or the understanding. My estimated true up is currently zero.
Perhaps this helps...
View attachment 79097

That's called net metering, basically, what you send back to the grid is deducted from your bill at the same rate as what you buy from the grid.

The other poster in this thread is NOT participating in net metering, rather, they are being paid what sounds like wholesale rates for the power they inject back into the grid, while they pay retail for the power they buy. This is likely the direction things are headed, as net metering doesn't adequately cover transmission costs, grid stability...etc.

The evolution of rooftop/embedded solar kind of looks like this:

1. FIT -> Feed-in Tariffs; subsidies (premiums) given to early adopters compensating them handsomely with well above-market rates for each kWh they contribute. This is what drove up electricity rates here in Ontario. Early FIT contracts were $0.60-$0.80/kWh!
2. Net Metering -> kWh sold to the grid are at the same rate (retail) as power purchased. This balances out and in many instances, people make money
3. Wholesale -> kWh sold to the grid are at whatever the market rate is. Since the market rate typically tanks during the day with high penetrations of solar, this can be a small fraction of the retail rate.

It sounds like you got in on #2, he's on #3.

What Australia is now doing is curtailing rooftop. That is, the grid rejects your output if there's already enough generation on the grid. This has many folks up in arms who expected to be making money but now have a hydro bill again because their daytime dumping of capacity is being curtailed.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I have a similar bill and similar size house and the solar guy told me (over their promotion free lunch) that it wouldn't work for me until I use a lot more electricity (i.e. have a bigger family).

The "cost" IMO need to include depreciation of the panel and the opportunity cost of the money you spend, so a more realistic number based on JeffKeryK's $10k would, over 25 years, be like $400 a year on depreciation and the $5k over 20 years (average between 0 to 20 for 10k, or 5k over 20 years) on opportunity cost (say S&P500 index fund), this opportunity cost may end up doubling the price, but so will electricity cost increase over the years. Nobody can predict how much this opportunity cost and electricity rate increase will be in your area.

p.s. Forgot to mention if you don't like to lose the opportunity cost, you can take out a loan and use the interest rate of the loan instead.

Gotta love the calculations! The S&P investment opportunity should not be included, because it involves risk. There is an opportunity cost to everything you buy, right? Plus, you have to have electricity, right?
Regarding energy cost, I think we would be hard pressed to show a decline, or even stability, within any relevant range.
I now have a good chance of minimal electricity energy cost for the next 20+ years. I'll take this investment any time. Solar, for me, is a true no brainer. With gasoline close to $5 per gallon, if I drove the Tesla more instead of the GS350 or Tundra, I would save an additional $60 plus per week, or more. $60 * 52 = $3,120.
The numbers tell an overwhelming story.

 

[eljefino]

So your saying if I was driving a Chevrolet Bolt (or insert another non-Tesla Vehicle here) and tried to find an Independent charger it would have been the same issue? If so-how do you know?

You can charge a Tesla on a Level 2 charger, as used by the Bolt and everybody else, with an adapter. It's way slower and possibly more out of the way. Chargepoint maintains a bunch. There's one at my work but it charges ~41 cents per kWh and a parking time fee as well.

A "stranded" Tesla might hog a L2 space, and the driver would probably be fuming the whole time.

 

[JeffKeryk]

With a twenty minute charge do you want to drive over Donner Pass to see the relatives?

Well do ya?


“The following morning they found the Tesla, buried in snow on the side of the road. The lifeless frozen bodies inside still staring at the touchscreen. They almost made it. “

I generally fly.

 

[JeffKeryk]

What Australia is now doing is curtailing rooftop. That is, the grid rejects your output if there's already enough generation on the grid. This has many folks up in arms who expected to be making money but now have a hydro bill again because their daytime dumping of capacity is being curtailed.

Trust me, I don't expect any favors from PG&E. Somebody's gotta pay for their bonuses while the burn down our forrests.
In fact, with the proliferation of solar in our area, PG&E is complaining about their drop in revenue and want to do something about it, like a basic minimum charge or who knows what.

 

[OVERKILL]

Trust me, I don't expect any favors from PG&E. Somebody's gotta pay for their bonuses while the burn down our forrests.
In fact, with the proliferation of solar in our area, PG&E is complaining about their drop in revenue and want to do something about it, like a basic minimum charge or who knows what.

As I noted, the transition from #2 to #3 takes care of that. That's the reason I asked if you had a contract, because if not, you could be shuffled from Net Metering to wholesale, which is going to be a pretty big kick to the stones.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Why does everyone keep insisting every vehicle in every family must do everything? Why wouldn't people expect to have 1 for commute and 1 for utility like crew cab or minivan?

People resist change; they hold on to the old ways because they think they are safe and they don't comprehend the evolution. As time goes on, they accept change.
What so many fail to realize is, the only constant is change. Ultimately, adapt or die.

If anyone thinks I am kidding (or stupid), look at the problems legacy automakers have right now. Tons of bad debt (high interest rates), horrible margins (7% to 8%), forced to invest billions which will take 10 years or more to recoup, many technology years behind Tesla.

For example, CEO Barra said GM can catch Tesla by 2025. Huh? How many EVs does GM have? The Bolt loses $9K per vehicle. Next is the Hummer. Just how many Hummers did they ever sell in the 1st place? How long will it take GM to break even on the Hummer, if ever?

Do you wonder why the market has rewarded Tesla?

 

[JeffKeryk]

As I noted, the transition from #2 to #3 takes care of that. That's the reason I asked if you had a contract, because if not, you could be shuffled from Net Metering to wholesale, which is going to be a pretty big kick to the stones.

If that occurs, I may be forced to go off the grid and get a Tesla battery. Who knows?

 

[OVERKILL]

Found this:

More info on PG&E NEM plan, contract and sign-up here, which it sounds like you went through:

PG&E Net Metering FAQ | Your Energy Solutions

www.yourenergysolutions.com

You can follow the evolution of the inverter requirements on the PG&E website:

Rebates & Incentives

California utility rebates and incentives from PG&E and others, including solar rebates and incentives.

www.pge.com

The most recent revision is quite important:

They are able to cut you off, limit your output or curtail it outright under the above. So, people with older systems that don't have smart inverters will have "priority" of sorts over these more recent ones which can be controlled by the grid operator. This all dovetails with what I mentioned above.