Tempest should love this one

[Tempest]

Quote:
Mr. Tempest and I may not agree on everything, but he does post interesting, thought provoking articles, which, though often bordering on P, are quite excellent.

It's good to be appreciated...I think...

You always bring plenty to a conversation as well.

I just think the idea of "poor" has been coopted. Go to third world countries where food is rare (even poor areas here have food markets), people are lucky to have cloths (much less access to machines to wash them), tin or earthen huts (compared to heat/AC w/ electricity, cable tv, telephones), roaming rape gangs, etc... Mostly caused by overly powerful, corrupt governments.

The "poor" in this country are much better off than the vast majority of the people on this planet. I think a lot of people loose this perspective.

 

[Gary Allan]

Agreed, but most of those nations don't

1) have so much amassed wealth.
2) don't pride themselves on being the most technically power economy on the planet (look up CIA World Fact Book)
3) Aren't the leaders of the global aligned industrial nations ..yet typically have more poverty, poorer medical care, substandard education, and more crime than most industrial economies that are dwarfed by the shear magnitude of our commerce.


Like I've said, while medical treatment, housing, education, and all the rest (good dental care, etc) aren't "rights". How can they not be affordable or widely distributed as benefits to the population of the most powerful and affluent nation on the planet?

There's some corruption of common sense in there somewhere. It's not like you have a baseline of functional and aspire from there. We're polarized.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
I just think the idea of "poor" has been coopted. Go to third world countries where food is rare (even poor areas here have food markets), people are lucky to have cloths (much less access to machines to wash them), tin or earthen huts (compared to heat/AC w/ electricity, cable tv, telephones), roaming rape gangs, etc... Mostly caused by overly powerful, corrupt governments.

The "poor" in this country are much better off than the vast majority of the people on this planet. I think a lot of people loose this perspective.


And I think the idea of "government destroying family values via welfare" that some of us have toward the government, and the ideas of unfairness of how we tax some of the better off folks is also being greatly "coopted".

The governments in the 1st world countries other than us are more difficult toward businesses and well off individuals than ours, by taxing up to 70% (Israel), forcing the retirement of cars older than 10 years (Japan), more expensive fuel (everywhere else in the world), not because their governments are evil, but because our government are more hands off and pro businesses than the rest of the world.

Some of our well off folks just don't understand, and thinks that because the rules of the game is to their advantage, it is unfair to change those rules to equate the playing fields, or lend a helping hands. They want the rules to be "fair" to their advantages.

 

[CivicFan]

Blaming the poor is easy and is widely practiced activity. We demand them to become just like us.

Here is a question I have for these folks.

Why aren't you a billionaire?

I mean, if it's easy for a poor person to become a middle class person, then it's just as easy for a middle class person to become an upper class person. If you are not a billionaire it means that you are lazy and not well educated. Get off your a$$ and make more money!

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Blaming the poor is easy and is widely practiced activity......


Can I have some examples of this? I'm actually pretty curious what this means(?)

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

They are many in poor neighborhoods who have more than I do. They drive a more expensive vehicle and have much more cash and a higher take home income.

They are well on their way to becoming wealthy. Of couse, the reason is that the government doesn't tax the sale of illegal drugs.

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
if it's easy for a poor person to become a middle class person, then it's just as easy for a middle class person to become an upper class person. If you are not a billionaire it means that you are lazy and not well educated.


Do you actually believe that lifting yourself out of poverty is as difficult as becoming a billionaire? (!!!)

Myself, my family, and millions of other people in this country would beg to differ.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
if it's easy for a poor person to become a middle class person, then it's just as easy for a middle class person to become an upper class person. If you are not a billionaire it means that you are lazy and not well educated.


Do you actually believe that lifting yourself out of poverty is as difficult as becoming a billionaire? (!!!)

Myself, my family, and millions of other people in this country would beg to differ.


Again, how do you know? A billionaire will say that you are lazy, uneducated and stupid that's why you are not a billionaire.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Blaming the poor is easy and is widely practiced activity......


Can I have some examples of this? I'm actually pretty curious what this means(?)


Quote:
But in general, my sympathy level is low - you don't like your staion in life, work extremely, soul-crushingly hard, and you will probably get out of it. Lots have.

 

[TooManyWheels]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
A billionaire will say that you are lazy, uneducated and stupid that's why you are not a billionaire.


Absolutely!

After all, if they can do it, anyone can do it!

I mean, that's what those who look down on those below them always say, so it should work both ways, right?

The guy that made it out always portrays himself as less capable than those who did not.

 

[Pablo]

If that passes for "blame" you are in deep yogurt. I don't see any blame being placed. He actually gave some GREAT advice.

Because someone doesn't show sympathy - they are NOT placing blame. Where did you learn that? And please don't give me the "read between the lines" routine.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Do you actually believe that lifting yourself out of poverty is as difficult as becoming a billionaire? (!!!)

Myself, my family, and millions of other people in this country would beg to differ.


Growing up in a family that was in poverty then rise to middle class, I'll have to say it is harder to go from poverty to middle class than from middle class to upper class.

The education level require to go from receiving welfare to middle class is high. Yet the education between middle class and billionaire is marginal at best. You also have more leverage in terms of capital, loans, and the basic quality of life that you isn't going to make or break your life. Food, shelter, fuel, health care are expensive, but not unaffordable to middle class, and the additional entitlement of billionaires are not going to make your life more efficient and productive, just toys and enjoyment.

The reason you don't see everyone being upper class is because most people are satisfied with being a middle class, and don't want to take the risk. How many people buy a 2nd or 3rd rental property and pay off their mortgage before they trade in their 10 year old cars. How many people take on more debt to start a business before they decide to upgrade their kitchen, buy an SUV, a nice piece of steak, a bottle of wine, over the weekend?

I haven't seen that many, because when a person is satisfied in life, his/her motivation to move higher is reduced, and he/she wants to start enjoying life.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Blaming the poor is easy and is widely practiced activity. We demand them to become just like us.

Here is a question I have for these folks.

Why aren't you a billionaire?

I mean, if it's easy for a poor person to become a middle class person, then it's just as easy for a middle class person to become an upper class person. If you are not a billionaire it means that you are lazy and not well educated. Get off your a$$ and make more money!

Never thought of putting it that way before... Good illustration of how difficult it can be to make it to the middle class even.
A good illustration is to visit a classroom in a low income area and then one in a high income area. You will see the odds are so stacked against the poor kids that it makes a mockery of the "american dream". The parents of the poor kids don't have time to help them at home and the poor rookie teacher from a middle class background has got their hands full just trying to make sure the kids or themselves don't require medical attention before the end of the day, let alone try to make up the gap to the rich kids...
I don't mean to keep trumpeting why Canada is so great, but we have huge school boards that encompass all sorts of areas so the income gap doesn't become as much of an education gap. All of Toronto, +-2 million people is one school board and although the schools are not perfectly equal, they are comparable atleast.

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
if it's easy for a poor person to become a middle class person, then it's just as easy for a middle class person to become an upper class person. If you are not a billionaire it means that you are lazy and not well educated.


Do you actually believe that lifting yourself out of poverty is as difficult as becoming a billionaire? (!!!)

Myself, my family, and millions of other people in this country would beg to differ.


Again, how do you know? A billionaire will say that you are lazy, uneducated and stupid that's why you are not a billionaire.


I guess I really DON'T know. Unfortunately, I'm not lucky enough to have personally talked with (as I'm presuming you have) any billionaires who have expressed this opinion.

If you have not personally heard this "lazy, uneducated, stupid" argument straight from the mouth of a billionaire, could you point me to any secondhand sources that DO express it? I'd like to educate myself.

 

[TooManyWheels]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
[ The parents of the poor kids don't have time to help them at home and the poor rookie teacher from a middle class background has got their hands full just trying to make sure the kids or themselves don't require medical attention before the end of the day, let alone try to make up the gap to the rich kids...


Even this commentary is highly optimistic. If you look at many poor family households, you will find there is no "family".

Family, at best, may be an aunt - actual or just a neighbor, if one is available. Mom is out drinking and whoring, just like her Mom before her. If she is not "out" doing it, she is doing it in the house. Therefore the child's homelife consists of an endless parade of drunk, drugged gentelman who want to sleep with, then beat up their Mother. What do you suppose that does for there ability to concentrate, maintain a civil, sunny disposition, model good behavior, etc? On a more practical level, how does that child buy school supplies, or even have a place to study and do homework? What does that child view as a "normal", achievable life?

There may be no actual stable home, of any description, to have a home life in. Many children are essentially abandoned, for long stretches of time, and if you think the social work system takes care of them, that again is an illusion.

My mother taught in inner city schools for twenty five years. I know ALL about it.

Contrast that with my friend whose Dad was a VP for Shell. He got his first summer job, after he had already been rejected for that same job, by his Mother talking with one of her bridge partners, the wife of an executive at that firm.

His friend's parents are similarly CEOS, VP's, investment bankers, etc. Does he compete on the same footing with people who don't even have a stable home life?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
The reason you don't see everyone being upper class is because most people are satisfied with being a middle class, and don't want to take the risk.


Well, I'd say that the society cannot sustain that many of them ..nor the upper class that are above them ...and THAT'S why many are satisfied with being middle class.

This is the shiny side of the half truth, "wealth is a relative state". Middle class, up until now, was pretty darn good.

My definition ..or rather dividing line between upper mc and mc .is there you're typically upwardly mobile on wealth accumulation. I've had upper middle class income level, but I've always been middle/working class. One would tend to be evidenced in your lifestyle ..the other is your lifestyle. Much like the difference between earned income and "owned" income.

You really can (almost, if you're thinking in some particular manner) apportion it along the lines of productivity to utilization ratios when defining class divisions. Middle class tend to have no wealth accumulations of merit ..but do have tremendous surpluses of productivity to enjoy (well, I don't know if joy is the product of this) ..or at least consume. It they all acted in the most risque sensible manner, they would be at some point of 85% on being "all in" in our socioeconomic Texas Hold'em. Their baseline costs are at a lower ratio to their productivity.

Upper middle class has more surplus productivity than can be sensibly consumed (should be consumed) and tends to accumulate more wealth.

Lower class has a very high ratio of baseline costs to productivity ratio. There the costs are dictated by what costs are incurred in maintaining the middle class (cost of living) at their relative lofty perch.

 

[buster]

Eh...there are so many factors involved let's face it. Cultural, racial, economic, stupidity....there will always be some degree of poor. Some of it is their fault, some of it is not. Too many over generalizations. The poor in this country have it pretty [censored] good relatively speaking. I'd rather be poor in America than [censored] India. The older I get and the more I read about history, the more I appreciate the freedom we have. For now.

 

[jsharp]

I saw this article earlier in the week. It plays right to the sympathies that promote the new forms of "fairness" we're seeing in government.

Life isn't fair and never will be. Heaven help and protect us from those who want to try to change those facts by application of large amounts of someone else's money.

 

[Gary Allan]

I agree, buster...but it is sad to be in a devolving state after such grand achievements. In a nation where freedom is often synonymous with economic clout, we are, as a society, falling from grace.

Keep in mind that we don't have freedom. We have assured liberties that we sacrificed our freedom for.

 

[buster]

True, I agree.