Synthetic Superior?

[haley10]

Food for thought. Please do not include Mobil 1, Amsoil, GC/SLX, RP etc. They are exempt from this argument.

Has anyone seen any evidence that Havoline Synthetics are better than conventional Havoline?? Is Castrol Syntec better than Syntec Blend?? Can Pennzoil dino really be improved upon by PZ marketing??

I'm naming these three, because they are most excellent and I have seen no evidence that there pricier syns have any real advantage.

I'm of the opinion you could be spending 2X more and getting less to no gain.

These don't seem to be capable of extended drains either beyond their dino/blend counterparts.

I'm not trying to inspire controversy, just rational thought.

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

Haley, this is a good question for Widman. Since Havoline's products are now just rebottled Chevron products, Widman can provide good insight into their product line from a real-world point of view.

Chevron/Havoline 5w-40 synth, I wish I could find it to try it. I've never seen it anywhere 'round here.

 

[drive it forever]

For an interesting point made by honda, google up honda hp4. I know they are talking about a bike oil, but they make an interesting statement, if true. It states, HP4 blends the heat- stability and shear resistance of a synthetic with the lubricity of mineral oil. Go on the iron pony web site to find the statement easy.

[ November 07, 2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: drive it forever ]

 

[Ken2]

The oils you mention do have higher viscosity index without as much viscosity index improvers and higher oxidation resistance.

This base oil chart shows some of these virtues.
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/BaseOils/comp_med.shtml
H.P. = hydro processed
UCBO = unconventional base oil
VHVI = very high viscosity index
PAO = polyalphaolefin

Group III base oils can make a very high quality product. If the price is the same, I'll take PAO...makes a better product.


Ken

 

[LarryL]

You might want to change the question to 'how much do you want to spend?'. Going up the steps from conventional to blends to some kind of pure synthetic is a price game, with other flavors in between, like Drive Clean or High Mileage.

The conventional oils and oci set by the factories are for their customers. After the car is about three years old and tranded in or sold, you're not the factory customer. Simple. If you want to keep your car beyond three years or drive in very severe condidions you might want to step up to a better oil. The better oils are not magic, still need to be changed every now and then, but have proven themselves in the market place to work.

Better oil has been around and for the most part, it's up to you to pick one, or not. Everyone is an experiment in one, and their experience won't be yours. Maintenance is not a trick with a magic bullet, it's work and consistant care. That's more important than the exact brand or grade of oil. Nothing makes up for the care given by an educated owner.

 

[Dr. T]

Oh no this question is a re-hash of the Gr. III vs. Gr. IV arguement again. Evidence:

1. Yes, look at the Lube articles posted here comparing the 2 groups....gr. III and IV are similar and worlds above gr. I/II.

2. There are no 5-40 nor 5-50 group I/II oils.

3. No gr. I/II oils are A3 rated.

4. Mori's engine pics at 122k using Syntec at 10k mi. intervals.

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

---

Originally posted by haley10:
Food for thought. Please do not include Mobil 1, Amsoil, GC/SLX, RP etc. They are exempt from this argument.

Has anyone seen any evidence that Havoline Synthetics are better than conventional Havoline?? Is Castrol Syntec better than Syntec Blend?? Can Pennzoil dino really be improved upon by PZ marketing??

I'm naming these three, because they are most excellent and I have seen no evidence that there pricier syns have any real advantage.

I'm of the opinion you could be spending 2X more and getting less to no gain.

These don't seem to be capable of extended drains either beyond their dino/blend counterparts.

I'm not trying to inspire controversy, just rational thought.

---

Why not include M1, amsoil, GC and RP?

Here is the bubble burster. Chevron Supreme! The only problem with this oil is that is seems to thin out a bit. Chevron UOAs rival ANY synthetic......and flat out blows them away when you factor in price.
I know GC fans will open fire here, but the truth is that Chevron makes an outstanding PCMO at an even more outstanding price!

 

[ekpolk]

Yes Z, I am a GC fan, but there's no need to resort to violence. CS is a fine oil. In fact, I used what is probably the same thing out of a black bottle (Havo) during the break-in on my G35. But now it's on GC. I guess it all depends on your priorities and budget. For me, I don't mind spending $15 or so more for my oil to get the n-th degree of protection. And it's extra protection in at least two dimensions. First in wear, although I'll readily concede that even in my engine (VQ35), there's a CS UOA posted that shows that CS does just fine. Second, there's use duration. Last year, I got into a jam where I was so busy that I ran up almost 9k miles before I could find time for a change. With the M1 I was using then, that was no problem. I doubt I would have gotten away with that with average dino in the V-6 Toyota I was driving at the time. Given its pedigree and the UOAs we've all seen, I expect GC to do even better.

 

[Last_Z]

What violence??

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Last_Z:
What violence??

---

Despite having undergone almost a quarter century of hard core Marine Corps brainwashing, I'd still have to say that "opening fire" would fall within the definition of "violence." Come to think of it, I'd have to admit that deep down inside, I still believe that using cheap dino on a good engine would constitute violence against valuable machinery (almost sounds like it could be a felony

).

EDIT: in case your memory is getting as bad as mine, I pulled the "open fire" quote from your second-to-last post. . .

 

[Audi Junkie]

Would CS, H, QS, PZ et al have saved Audi's turbo engines from sludging? Synth vs dino depends on the application.

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Last_Z:
What violence??

---

Despite having undergone almost a quarter century of hard core Marine Corps brainwashing, I'd still have to say that "opening fire" would fall within the definition of "violence." Come to think of it, I'd have to admit that deep down inside, I still believe that using cheap dino on a good engine would constitute violence against valuable machinery (almost sounds like it could be a felony

).

EDIT: in case your memory is getting as bad as mine, I pulled the "open fire" quote from your second-to-last post. . .

---

When I referred to "open fire", I mean you GC fans firing on me. Either way, I want you to know I regard GC as an outstanding oil. I don't hate it nor admire it like some king.

Audi,

No one said anything about turbos. Either way, a good HDEO will easily survive in a turbo......they are made just for that abuse.
Once you begin getting into sub-artic conditions, then a good synthetic is a must.....no question.

The question Haley asked was: Are synthetics that much better than dino?

The answer is more often than not, dinos are equal to their syn counterparts. The key is to remember all other factors such as climate, vehicle type, engine type, etc when choosing an engine.

 

[Grossomotto]

quote:

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The answer is more often than not, dinos are equal to their syn counterparts.

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Are they equal for extended drains? Cold winter starts? Sludging? Oxidation? Extreme heat in Turbo applications? Please elaborate.

 

[Grossomotto]

quote:

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I'm of the opinion you could be spending 2X more and getting less to no gain.

---

The misconception is that if you spend 2X, or even 5X, more than dino for synthetic, then you should get 2X to 5X the performance. Obviously, that's not the case. Synthetic users don't expect that much more performance out of synthetic oil, only dino users do. That's why dino users don't buy it.

I buy synthetic oil for a number of reasons. And one of them is because I have enough money to do so.


(I just reread your original post which says to exclude Mobil 1, Amsoil, GC/SLX, RP which is probably more than 50% of the oil on the board. For what it's worth, my reply included these oils)

[ November 08, 2004, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: Grossomotto ]

 

[haley10]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that some dinos are already Group II+ with a good additive pack. Some of these appear to retain TBN for a reasonable oci about as good as their Group III counterparts of the same brand, hence not a real extended oci advantage.

Minimal cold weather advantage for the majority also.

I do run synthetics, but if I were limited to the brands I mentioned, I think the dinos or blend noted will equal the performance of their syn (GPIII) in many cases in 5-30 and 10-30.

I've used PZ, Havoline, and Syntec Blend in 10-30. I don't think I could convince myself that I would get better performance with their synthetic labelled Group III product. If I needed to meet 4718M or Viper spec. maybe, but that's about the only enhanced spec. you get.

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

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Originally posted by Grossomotto:

quote:

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The answer is more often than not, dinos are equal to their syn counterparts.

---

Are they equal for extended drains? Cold winter starts? Sludging? Oxidation? Extreme heat in Turbo applications? Please elaborate.

---

Many times the are. There are countless of synthetic oil VOAs oxidized in just 5k miles or less. Obviously, you want to put the dinos at a disadvantage.....but it's all good!

-HDOEs go 10-15k miles on the dirtiest engines out there......diesels.
-HDEO have less of a problem with oxidation than many if not most synthetics.
-HDEOs have the best.........I repeat, the best anti-sludge package.
-I think it would be fair to say that HDEOs have to endure some of the highest temperatures in a turbo. I am a truck driver for the military, and I know all about cooldown times and all that.
-Finally, there are quite a few 10W-30 HDEOs that have decent cold flow properties. Not as good as synthetic, but acceptable for most places. Cold starts are acceptable in most cases.

Now, Delvac 1300, Motorcraft HD, and Chevron Delo are just 3 examples of pure dino power. These are proven oils that have been in use decades and satisfied many truck drivers.
I believe you smart post was a cheap shot.......but I think it backfired.

Is this elaborate enough for ya! Tell me any I posted isn't true!

 

[Last_Z]

One last thing; many dino users are posting UOAs of 5k miles and more with excellent results.

You see, I never said dino was better than synthetic. My point is that most of us do not go past 5-6k miles and in many of those cases, the user can use dino, have a clean engine, good performance and save quite a few dollars.
I just dumped synthetic with only 4k miles. I should probably say that I dumped money that didn't pay for itself.

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

---

Originally posted by haley10:
I guess the point I was trying to make is that some dinos are already Group II+ with a good additive pack. Some of these appear to retain TBN for a reasonable oci about as good as their Group III counterparts of the same brand, hence not a real extended oci advantage.

Minimal cold weather advantage for the majority also.

I do run synthetics, but if I were limited to the brands I mentioned, I think the dinos or blend noted will equal the performance of their syn (GPIII) in many cases in 5-30 and 10-30.

I've used PZ, Havoline, and Syntec Blend in 10-30. I don't think I could convince myself that I would get better performance with their synthetic labelled Group III product. If I needed to meet 4718M or Viper spec. maybe, but that's about the only enhanced spec. you get.

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Haley,

I believe you are right on the money. You'd have a hard time improving on the dinos you mentioned......especially using fake synthetic that's gonna cost ya 3-4 times as much.