Synthetic OCI's for Light & Medium Duty Diesels

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Out of curiosity, what are some of the lengths that high quality synthetics are being reliably run in the light and medium duty pick-ups, etc., today?

I know some of the bigger diesels, with greater oil capacity, are able to run some pretty impressive distances, but what about the diesels with less capacities than that?
(i.e. Duramax, Cummings, Powerstrokes, and such)

I don't have a diesel myself, so this would be the reason for beckoning this information.
This is not exclusive to certain brands, as long as they are high quality synthetic oils. Comparisons to conventional oil OCI's, for contrast purposes, are welcomed as well. I know this may vary between applications, but that's something that will be nice to see.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Routinly Dmax and cummins engines can have a longer OCI then the powerstroke. The HEUI injection system on the PSD is much harder on oil and oil temps usually run a bit higher. The 6.0 PSD is particularly harder on oil as it runs 3800 PSI od High pressure oil where most 7.3 will run in the 2800 range.

With this being said most of my customers are hot shot drivers that want the best and all run bypass filters. Oil changer intervals on Dmax's and Cummins run between 25-50k. My PSD customers run roughly 20k, but have seen them gor 35 with good UOA still. Due to the injection system I dont reccommend it on a PSD.

With a good full flow filter only 10K on the PSD and 15 on the cummins and Dmax.

Synthetic is the only option in my shop. 6000 for the PSD on a Good conventional ( delo or Delvac ) and 8,000 on the cummins and Dmax.

If aftermarket programmers are used this can degrade the oil slightly aswell. More full= more Soot.

IMO Filtering is more important then what you pour in on a diesel, good filtering will extend OCI

We maily use Amsoil in these vehicles and Redline in our higher HP trucks.
 
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So without by-pass filters, you're likely not to see great results (and/or UOAs) from synthetic over about 2x the OEM interval? Is 20k on a very good oil filter and oil pushing the limits?
 
On a cummins or Duramax 20K would be max ( Stock no aftermarket programming). still 10K on a PSD though

I would get a UOA at 12k, All of these trucks are a bit different I have noticed.

Fleetguard has what they call a venturi filter. VERY good Filter. It's a step up from the stratapore and has Bypass filter discs in them.
 
Well, depending upon who you speak with, some would suggest some fairly long OCIs.

Amsoil recommends 3x the OEM OCI when using their lubes along with their EaO filters. (note, there is a caveot in that DPF regen engines have been now dropped to 7.5k miles without UOA, or 5% fuel dilition with UOA, (or something like that)). Some Dmax trucks can run dino oil out to 10k miles on the OLM, so the Amsoil would be 30k miles. That's a bit of a stretch, but possible. I'd certainly be doing UOAs along the way to confirm such abilities.

I think most people can't give a good answer to how far to push out a synthetic, because people so often use synthetics for the wrong reason. They beleive they will get less wear with snythetics, but the REAL benefit to synthetics is the extended OCI. Too few people push it out long enough to find out.

Dmax engines tend to be the easiest on oil. PSDs are pretty hard on the shearing factor, but the wear does not really seem coorelated to that loss of vis. ISBs seem to be very consistent and have great longevity.

I would not hesitate to run 20k miles in my Dmax with a top end PAO based product, but I'd have to have a very good filter to go with it such as EaO, P1, or such! And I'd be getting UOAs along the way.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3

I think most people can't give a good answer to how far to push out a synthetic, because people so often use synthetics for the wrong reason. They beleive they will get less wear with snythetics, but the REAL benefit to synthetics is the extended OCI. Too few people push it out long enough to find out.


Are you sure you would suggest that this is the only benefit of synthetics?

I know this is relatively subjective until you focus on a more specific example (brand vs. brand, etc.), but I think there are, pound for pound, much better ingredients (even per mile) in a syn than conventional. But I do acknowledge this point.
 
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Speaking of HDEOS in particular (although the same evidence can be seen in PCMOs), if you peruse lots of UOAs, you'll see that low mileage UOAs don't show any favorable wear reduction comparing dinos to syns. At least, not anywhere equal to the cost ratio.

The syns gain their advantage when the OCI goes up.

In short to moderate OCIs, dinos can hold their own right along with syns, regarding wear protection.

I understand that there are claims of other synthetic benefits, but most nearly all the time, those benefits are never actually achieved by the user. Let's review some of them.

1) fuel economy: might be a bit of savings here; I'll admit that. But it's very slight; not the 10% you often hear touted. Fuel economy is most controlled by driver attitude and style; the foot is the main contributor/detractor to efficiency! A realistic view of efficiency gain is likely 2% or so, if you stay in the same grade. Castrol claims a 5% gain when using their PAO Elixion, but that is comparing a PAO 5w-30 HDEO to a dino 15w-40 HDEO, so not only is there a base stock upgrade, but also a grade viscosity reduction! If you compare syn to dino in the same grade, I suspect 1 or 2 percent would be "normal". If you get 15mpg with dino, you'd only get a few tenths better with syn! You want better economy? Get off the loud pedal!

2) better cold temperature range; certainly true. But to what gain? Dino oils are available in many grades. Pick one that works for your environment. HDEO syns would really only have a significant advantage over dinos when the temps fall well below zero, say -15 deg F or lower? How many of us have that happen on such a routine basis that we NEED synthetic? I certainly agree that SOME small percentage of our members do, but certainly not the vast majority. People want the great low temp advantage of syns, but they don't NEED it. A 10w-30 dino HDEO will function well below zero. Heck, my Dmax owner's manual recommends 15w-40 dino down to zero!

3) better hot temp range: Again, true. But in such a small window that it's a moot point. What do I mean by that? Consider this ... If you get your engine hot, just how hot is hot? 210 Deg F is fairly normal for the coolant temp in today's turbo diesel trucks. Certainly the EGT pushes the temps in the turbo as high as 1500 deg in very extreme circumstances. But, the oil is never in there long enough to cook. (It's like waving your hand over a candle versus holding your hand over the candle). Oil is not sitting stagnat in the turbo; it's moving. The heat soaks into the oil, but not the FULL temp, because the heat transference is being assisted by the flow. If this were not true, the coolant in your engine would not function either! Cooling is a function of volume and velocity. So, dino oils can handle the hot turbo just fine, because they and the engine were both designed with this performance need in mind. The only time a synthetic would have a true advantage is if you actually overheated your engine, via water pump failure, etc. And the synthetic would actually withstand the temp rise better than dino, BUT only for a short time, and then it also would become overwhelmed just as the dino oil does. So, the "hot" protection offered by syns is really actually a very narrow windown of "too hot" for dino, but "not yet over heating". That's a pretty narrow window, so your chance of actually being in that exact range for the benefit is pretty darn narrow as well.

4) syns are cleaner: really? I disagree. Here's why. Let's agree that it's very likely that the rate of contamination is fairly steady. The soot generated by the combustion process is fairly constant, over the OCI period. Dino oils are designed to handle soot and contamination just like any oil, because they have both detergents and dispersents. The dispersents are actually more important in my opinion. They help keep the soot and other insolubles from agglomerating (co-joining) and become physically larger. When soot is held small (typically it starts out sub-micron) it cannot do much harm; most data shows that most engine damage occurs in the 5-15um range. So as long as your oil is keeping the insolubles below that size, little damage is done. So as long as the dino oil does not have it's add-pack overwhelmed, it can function just as well as the syn. You see, the contamination rate is the same, so even if the syn has "more good cleaning stuff" in it, it does not make any differece until it would surpass a point where the dino oil is saturated, but the syn has some additive left. Syns don't clean better; they clean longer. It's the very same philosophy as wear protection; syns don't protect "better", they protect longer.
 
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I think I agree in principle with most of what you said except a few of the comments below.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

4) syns are cleaner: really? I disagree. Here's why. Let's agree that it's very likely that the rate of contamination is fairly steady. The soot generated by the combustion process is fairly constant, over the OCI period. Dino oils are designed to handle soot and contamination just like any oil, because they have both detergents and dispersents. The dispersents are actually more important in my opinion. They help keep the soot and other insolubles from agglomerating (co-joining) and become physically larger. When soot is held small (typically it starts out sub-micron) it cannot do much harm; most data shows that most engine damage occurs in the 5-15um range. So as long as your oil is keeping the insolubles below that size, little damage is done. So as long as the dino oil does not have it's add-pack overwhelmed, it can function just as well as the syn. You see, the contamination rate is the same, so even if the syn has "more good cleaning stuff" in it, it does not make any differece until it would surpass a point where the dino oil is saturated, but the syn has some additive left. Syns don't clean better; they clean longer. It's the very same philosophy as wear protection; syns don't protect "better", they protect longer.


Is this not assuming that all additives/detergents/dispersants/etc. are created equal? If we accept this as common knowledge, is it proven?
To be created equal, let's use an example:

There is 10% of dino oil made of X additives per quart, which is to be run 3,000 miles.
If a synthetic oil has the same additives, X, per quart, but can be run 15,000 miles, would this not mean that the synthetic oil would have to consist of 3x the amount of X, or 30% per quart? (I'm going linear here for simplicity.)
This wouldn't be logical, in my mind.
Forgive the elementary example, but it is for the sake of ease.

Also, does the composition of some dino oils not inherently cause more conglomeration than synthetics? Hence MANY more instances of sludge build-up and such, for example. I was under the impression that the waxy composition of dino oils was widely accepted.

Good post!
 
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I have a 2000 powerstroke excursion 4x4. I switched to synthetics at about 5k miles. The 2nd oil change was AME 15w40 amsoil. I changed out the initial fill at 500 miles or so and filled with Valvoline 15w40. The romps started with this oil. After 5k miles I filled with AME. The romps still occurred but not as often. After 17k miles or so I did an analysis and the oil was still good but it had sheared down to about 12.2 cst from 14.4 or so. Blame it on the injectors. My next change went with HDD 5w30 and the romps ended forever. I tested the oil at 25k miles and it was still good but I drained it out anyway. This was with 2 quarts makeup oil and still being down about 1 qt. I go through about 1 qt every 8-10k miles.

My best mileage was about 22.5mpg round trip to LA from Phoenix. This was holding the cruise control at 65mph and one stop each way in Quartzsite. Round trip 808 miles on one tank. I have a 44 gal tank.

Since I moved out to Alabama, I have had the cpm reflashed by dp-tuner and on the way back from NE Atlanta I got 23+ mpg at varying speeds 60-72mph. With the extra power now available, my around town mileage has dropped some.
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I may have to do an oil analysis on the next oil change coming up in 2500 miles since I boosted the power a little. So to answer your question, 25k miles using about 17-18 qts total.

Oh, the 5w30 HDD starts out at 11.9cst and thickens to about 12.2 cst over 25k miles. It looks like the powerstroke likes 12.2cst. I am guessing that the thickening was due to soot loading which was well below the condemnation limits and that shearing was negligible in this 30w.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3


4) syns are cleaner: really? I disagree. Here's why. Let's agree that it's very likely that the rate of contamination is fairly steady. The soot generated by the combustion process is fairly constant, over the OCI period. Dino oils are designed to handle soot and contamination just like any oil, because they have both detergents and dispersents. The dispersents are actually more important in my opinion. They help keep the soot and other insolubles from agglomerating (co-joining) and become physically larger. When soot is held small (typically it starts out sub-micron) it cannot do much harm; most data shows that most engine damage occurs in the 5-15um range. So as long as your oil is keeping the insolubles below that size, little damage is done. So as long as the dino oil does not have it's add-pack overwhelmed, it can function just as well as the syn. You see, the contamination rate is the same, so even if the syn has "more good cleaning stuff" in it, it does not make any differece until it would surpass a point where the dino oil is saturated, but the syn has some additive left. Syns don't clean better; they clean longer. It's the very same philosophy as wear protection; syns don't protect "better", they protect longer.


With respect:

"Formulations containing PAOs generally seem to be extremely good at holding large quantities of contaminants in suspension".
Automotive Lubricants Reference Book, 2nd ed., p.187, Haycock & Hillier

Charlie
 
Hi,
noting the wise comments from some above I can only reiterate the experience I have of this over 30 years - in all sorts of diesel engine families

Use UOAs wisely to determine an acceptable OCI - it helps to know the engine Manufacturer's critical min/maxs relating to soot%, Iron ppm, TBN/TAN an viscosity etc - at the very least!

Some lubricanst do indeed handle soot control much better than others!
 
Charlie - I don't disagree that PAOs cannot hold stuff in suspension. My comment is that you must look at the "concept" that most people what to use for their own defintition of "clean".

So often we hear the synthetics clean "better". Better as to what? Do they clean "faster"? Do they clean "deeper"? Do they clean "longer". All I ever hear is "better". But better at what?

My point is that the rate of contamination for any individual engine is likely fairly constant. Let's agree on that. At least based upon a fairly reasonable pattern of use.

So, if one uses a quality HDEO, the detergents and dispersents can both do the job, well, until they can no longer do the job. Only after a dino oil is overwhelmed will a synthetic outperform and be "better". So to me, the "better" means longer cleaning cycle; not deeper or faster.

So yet again I find myself thinking that synthetics are not "better" at any particular topic (with the exception of extreme cold flow). They are longer lasting. In this case, it has nothing to do with the base stock; the add pack is grossly boltered to match the expected long service interval. You could likely get a dino HDEO to clean just as long, but the base stock would be worn out before the add-pack would be. So the OEMs blend the dino oil with a particular service interval range in mind, to balance out the costs vs. performance lifecycle.

I'm not saying the reference quote you provided is wrong. But it is a statement that is of no comparison ro contrast. You can make that same statement about dino oil. PAOs don't hold stuff in suspection any "better" because of the base stock; they work well because of the add pack. Which is manipulated based upon the targeted OCI market.
 
Actually, the section of the book I was quoting was purely about base stocks. Additives are later in the chapter. I have read other references that PAOs are particularly good at suspending contaminants (like soot) as a function of the base stock; also that they are not as good as mineral stocks at solubilizing additives (that's also in the previously posted reference). But I'm at work, I can't come up with chapter and verse at the moment.
I use synthetic for 2 reasons: my climate; and I'm planning long OCIs on my upcoming RTW trip (round the world) ~20-25K miles/OCI.

Charlie
 
Hi,
Charlie - IME it is a factor of the base stock and additives - some quite unique (in combination) to some organisiations. I have noticed this over several decades - commencing in the 1960s!

I would certainly use a high quality synthetic HDEO that conforms to your needs for your impending trip. In many cases abroad the supply/availability of quality lubricants may be suspect!

As it was quoted to me at Unterturkheim recently some people do waste money on exotic lubricants that produce no real benefit (the feel good factor excepted) over those Approved and Listed by the Manufacturer!
 
Charlie - RTW trip? I'm jealous!

Are you going to have a blog up and running, so we all can follow along? That would be very intriguing to ride along with you, so to speak.
 
I'm shipping to Australia in late July, starting with a 2 month trip to northern Queensland ~9/20/10, then back to work Dec-Jan, then southern Oz Feb-March, NW Oz June-Aug, etc. 2-3 mos at a time.
Eventually, I'm driving to Germany via SE Asia, China, Tibet, Mongolia, Central Asia etc.
I figure one oil change in mid trip (end of Australia phase) with about 9 gal of make-up oil.
It's a 2 year project, I'll be able to work intermittently during the first 15 months.

Charlie
 
Hi,
Charlie - I'll be very disappointed if we cannot catch up somewhere. I am about 350kms south of Townsville - at the gateway to the 74 Islands of the Great Barrier Reef. Airlie Beach is about 30kms off the Bruce Highway (the main artery to Brisbane from the north)

There are a number of other long time OZ Members of BITOG - I'm sure that they would love to see you too
 
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