Synthetic. Group Base oil

Messages
20
Location
South Carolina
How do you determine which Synthetic Base oil group is used in the various oils marketed. I have downloaded most of the data sheets and MSDS but cannot decipher. I want to use the highest percentage of PAO in a 5w-40 oil in my 2005.5 TDI Jetta..I dont care about cat clogging as I will remove or disable it at the first sign of trouble though from my reading it appears that the higher NOACK values suggest that no oil is "burned" and therefore produces less ash to become a problem for the Cat. It is my intention to add ZDDP to a fully synthetic group IV or V oil and at this oil change I will add a bypass filter (car currently has 107K)
 
Messages
824
Location
San Jose area, CA
First off unless you have access to some "industry only" type information, it has never been presented in that way. So for example, KNOWN PAO Group IV product brands are Mobil One, Mobil One ESP 507, Total Quartz/ELF, AMSOIL, Redline, etc. Since you have 107,000 miles, I would as a minimum remove the valve cover plate and do a visual on the camshaft. In the worst case the premium oil and bypass oil filter you intend to use will not undo any "damage". I did a visual on an 03 TDI at the first 100,000 miles TB/WP change and the camshaft had original oem tool markings. It has not run a bit of (extra) "additive" ZDDP. I fully expect at the next 100,000 miles TB/WP change (200k) to see app the same results.
 
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1quartlow

Thread starter
Messages
20
Location
South Carolina
My only concern is that my engine code (BRM) is a flat tappet design that has historically needed ZDDP to protect camshaft and components...ESP oils have very reduced ZDDP, and therefore reduced ash,to protect the cat. Lubrizol is supposed to have engineered quite an additive pack for the Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 (VW 507.00 standard) but the -30 vis scares me a bit here in the hellish conditions of a SC summer.
 
Messages
824
Location
San Jose area, CA
Well for sure VW did not do itself any favors by having the specifications go all over the place. So for example, I would tend to use the Mobil One oil that meets the VW specification for your MY engine !! There are all sorts of anomolies that I will not bore you with but suffice to say don't worry much about SC summers as I routinely run through the Mojave Desert and Death Valley.
 
Messages
8,859
Location
Texas
Why are you hard over on PAO? One of the severely hydroprocessed Group III+ base stock HDEOS should be ideal for your application (Shell Rotella T Synthetic, Mobil Delvac, etc.) You certainly wouldn't have to go fooling around adding ZDDP (and risking conflicts with other additives) with those oils. And they've got high TBN retention to really stretch out the OCI, which is where I'm assuming you're headed by installing a bypass filter. The more I learn, the more I believe that Group III+ actually has some substantial real-world advantages over PAO, especially in HDEOs.
 

1quartlow

Thread starter
Messages
20
Location
South Carolina
It was my thinking that folks who regularly use UOA would be the best source for up to date information and therefore would be my first choice to let me know which synthetics are truly solid performers in my Diesel Jetta and which are just hyped with advertisements or "religious" devotion...they know who they are". In short I wanted to learn opinions based upon numbers / facts...Objectivity I know that my post really does not belong in this section; but, I hope that I have made my case...I throw myself on the mercy of the moderator.
 
Messages
824
Location
San Jose area, CA
And your opinion, editorial is...? There are literally a host of posted UOA's. Did you not do a search for your VW model year to get the "objective" data? Did you not do a search for one that used additional additives ZDDP? Did you not take off your valve cover to confirm or deny the actual condition of your camshaft, as NOTHING will remedy a vague feeling unsupported by base line realities!!?? So for example if you do have camshaft wear, NO oil will reverse that process. A few oils, specifications and reasons were mentioned and you "BLEW them off". So what "objective" data are YOU using to blow them off? Even as focussed an area such as http://www.tdiclub.com has a thread on UOA's and the so called rank order of UOA results. However they are the first to say, the UOA's sample populations are not large enough to support statistical rigors.
 
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1quartlow

Thread starter
Messages
20
Location
South Carolina
Why the stern rebuke Ruking77? I asked one question on a motor oil specific website to learn the group classes of synthetic motor oils. You promtly replied...Thanks. I asked a follow-up question about -30 vs -40 in my climate and again you replied promptly...Thanks again. Questions answered My other posts were in reply to friendly questions and finally to answer why I posted in this part of the forum and in reality did not concern you directly. If I have injured your feelings then please accept my genuine apology and then put me on your "ignore" list FORUMS are intended for the open discussion and exchange of ideas
 
Messages
824
Location
San Jose area, CA
No rebuke from my point of view, just a few non personal statements and direct questions with the intent of furthering open discussion and exchange of ideas. If you took them as a rebuke, that was not the drill. If you don't want to answer the questions, that is fine also. I am sure that others besides me are interested in whether or not you have camshaft wear and what it could be due to. Indeed we hope you do not. All the best, but still curious.
 
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Messages
251
Location
Kingman, Arizona
The fact is, some of us with 2005 TDIs would really like to know what is a great oil, not just a good oil, to run in our PD engines for maximum protection. It doesn't help when the 2003 crowd tells us what works great in their non-PD TDIs. I have been running Motul Specific 505.01 in mine but am changing to Motul Specific 507, which I now understand is the kiss of death even though it is approved for my engine. I am still waiting for someone to tell me what Volkswagen wants in PD oils to make them better than Mobil 1 or Shell Rotella T. And, I would really rather not get my answer from someone using either of those in their pre-PD TDIs.
 
Messages
824
Location
San Jose area, CA
I think you have a long wait. We all know there are a few posters who have used say Delvac One 5w40 in their post 2003 (2004 on up) and the UOA's show great results. It is however controversial.
 

1quartlow

Thread starter
Messages
20
Location
South Carolina
Fair enough....No harm no foul I pulled off the VC at 100K...no problems but reading so much about the spec changes with oils, Mobil being the best example (Delvac 1 is now Delvac ESP and the Turbo Diesel Truck is now the old delvac 1 and so on)..I am member of several forums including TDICLUB. I have gone to several TDI GTG and there are so many divergent points of view on oil and because I know that my engine's achilles heal is the camshaft/lobes, I decided to research and learn as much as possible about motor oil and the properties needed to properly protect my engine. I am under no warranty requirements anymore; I just have to live with the choices. The oil demanded by VW for my 2005.5 Jetta adheres to standard VW505.01 5w-40 full synth.(Castrol was the only oil available in the US)(circa 2004) when I joined this forum is was because I could only find oil at the dealership for ($8.00/L) but when I googled VW505.01 all of the oils we find here in america all met the standard in Australia, Germany, England and so forth BUT NOT IN THE USA. I tried to understand if Mobil 1 5w-40 in the US was different from Mobil 1 5w-40 sold everywhere else in the world. Mobil's tech line was no help....Castrol was no help with their products...The bottom line was that I never learned the answer so I had all of the service done at the dealership until the warranty expired....Fast forward to now. Like the man in the Jimmy Buffett song..."looking for answers to questions that bothered him so..." and all of the latest talk of the VW 507.00 standard (circa 2005 and only available in 5w-30 from 2 outlets in the US)combined with the Ultra Low Sulpher Diesel Fuel again I go to the mountain looking for wisdom. Could I stick with my tried and true Motul Specific 505.01 5w-40? Sure but probably like you I am looking for a better answer. All of the data that I can find from Mobil et.al is that these new oils were formulated to protect Cats and emission system components from ash by reducing the ZDDP ( which was mandated in Europe circa 2004) and wasn't relevant in the USA until the advent of ULSD and the new VW Clean Diesel being sold in the US. Emission control not flat tappet protection. In all of my research I have decided that perhaps the best approach is to determine the best synth base oil and then logically to what brand contains this base in the highest percentage and finally if to add ZDDP plus to this wunerkind oil. Please excuse my ramblings but I am working to limit the degrees of freedom to solve this puzzle and return to my happy life. Thanks for your patience
 

1quartlow

Thread starter
Messages
20
Location
South Carolina
Hey Boatowner...excuse the pun but we appear to be in the same boat. I have a 2005.5 A5 TDI and I am looking for a good answer as well. The 507.00 oil is or was supposed to become VW's common oil to consolidate all of their standards for gas and diesel vehicles as well as meet emissions system components protection guidelines. Go to http://www.tdiclub.com and go to the FAQ section Lubricants I believe it is post #1 and its old but you will find a speech from an executive at Motul (but now with ELF) who quotes..."VW does not care what is in an oil but what the oil does..." further that VW requires 30 liters of oil for testing within VW's labs. When the tests are complete the oil either passes or fails. I would have to believe that some prior communications between oil manuf and VW would give the oil company a pretty good idea of what VW is looking for (i.e. Zee oil must contain 2 Yak hairs per/litre...and you must return with a ...Shrubbery) please excuse my Monte Python reference but its getting late here and I could not resist.
 
Messages
824
Location
San Jose area, CA
 Originally Posted By: 1quartlow
Fair enough....No harm no foul I pulled off the VC at 100K...no problems but reading so much about the spec changes with oils, Mobil being the best example (Delvac 1 is now Delvac ESP and the Turbo Diesel Truck is now the old delvac 1 and so on)..I am member of several forums including TDICLUB. I have gone to several TDI GTG and there are so many divergent points of view on oil and because I know that my engine's achilles heal is the camshaft/lobes, I decided to research and learn as much as possible about motor oil and the properties needed to properly protect my engine. I am under no warranty requirements anymore; I just have to live with the choices. The oil demanded by VW for my 2005.5 Jetta adheres to standard VW505.01 5w-40 full synth.(Castrol was the only oil available in the US)(circa 2004) when I joined this forum is was because I could only find oil at the dealership for ($8.00/L) but when I googled VW505.01 all of the oils we find here in america all met the standard in Australia, Germany, England and so forth BUT NOT IN THE USA. I tried to understand if Mobil 1 5w-40 in the US was different from Mobil 1 5w-40 sold everywhere else in the world. Mobil's tech line was no help....Castrol was no help with their products...The bottom line was that I never learned the answer so I had all of the service done at the dealership until the warranty expired....Fast forward to now. Like the man in the Jimmy Buffett song..."looking for answers to questions that bothered him so..." and all of the latest talk of the VW 507.00 standard (circa 2005 and only available in 5w-30 from 2 outlets in the US)combined with the Ultra Low Sulpher Diesel Fuel again I go to the mountain looking for wisdom. Could I stick with my tried and true Motul Specific 505.01 5w-40? Sure but probably like you I am looking for a better answer. All of the data that I can find from Mobil et.al is that these new oils were formulated to protect Cats and emission system components from ash by reducing the ZDDP ( which was mandated in Europe circa 2004) and wasn't relevant in the USA until the advent of ULSD and the new VW Clean Diesel being sold in the US. Emission control not flat tappet protection. In all of my research I have decided that perhaps the best approach is to determine the best synth base oil and then logically to what brand contains this base in the highest percentage and finally if to add ZDDP plus to this wunerkind oil. Please excuse my ramblings but I am working to limit the degrees of freedom to solve this puzzle and return to my happy life. Thanks for your patience
Interesting that you passed over the MAJOR issue (my .02cents anyway), going from LSD (up to 500 ppm sulfur) to NOW ULSD 15 ppm to 9 ppm) Since I use Delvac One 5w40 (yes I understand it has morphed or been reformulated into its current offerings), this brew was formulated with the LSD in mind and common use !!! So indeed it needed to be MORE STOUT, plus as you correctly point out it emissions components were LESS of a concern. TBN for example was rated @ 12 and depending on who did the testing 10 practical. As you can see, the RATIOS have come down DRAMATICALLY, and the new formulations now factor the new realities. So finally we are able to use the correct specification fuels: ULSD. So it SOUNDS to me the Motul (505.01 VW Specifications) that you are using is doing the job. Since you have a base line visual inspection of the camshaft and it seems to be good, perhaps a base line UOA and one or two to chart the trends, with a spot UOA every now an again will be the real sign posts that will give you peace of mind.
 
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Messages
8,859
Location
Texas
 Originally Posted By: 1quartlow
In all of my research I have decided that perhaps the best approach is to determine the best synth base oil and then logically to what brand contains this base in the highest percentage and finally if to add ZDDP plus to this wunerkind oil. Please excuse my ramblings but I am working to limit the degrees of freedom to solve this puzzle and return to my happy life. Thanks for your patience
I think searching for the "best base oil" first is misguided. The best base oil in the world won't protect without the right additive package. Base oil is important because it controls many of the bulk characteristics of the oil (volatility, viscosity index apart from VI improvers, flash point, oxidation rate, etc.) but the additives control all of the key lubrication properties. You need both, and from my research its probably best to forget religious adherence to demanding a PAO oil. The Group III+ oils are truly excellent. As for flat tappet protection- you probably have far, far less to worry about there than I do. Two of the engines in my .sig have FAR higher valve spring pressures and therefore far more stressful camshaft protection demands than your relatively low-RPM diesel (yes, I know a TDI is "high speed" for a diesel. But you don't have the 400-lb plus (seated) valve spring pressures that I do, and that's only partially offset by the larger size of my engines' lifters and cam lobes. Rotella T synthetic is working extremely well for me. It might not have enough ZDDP if I had broken in the cams on it initially, but that's what camshaft break-in lubricant is for ;-)
 
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