Synthetic Atf

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: pjc360
the owner of the shop that re-built my trans did say he put oem planeterys in it.
I guess I could invest that 700 dollars into something else. If I put a good synthetic fluid in it along with my two coolers and installed a temp gauge to watch temps I'd most likely be just fine. I still am going to have the shift kit installed though, main reason I want the shift kit installed is because it has a feature that makes the transmission lube its self while in park.
For some reason these old 727 based transmissions don't lube them selves in park, it has to be in neutral. I am pretty anal about making sure I let the truck warm up while in nuetral to get the fluid circulating through the transmission, but every once in awhile I forget, so it would be nice for it to circulate while in park. Plus it modifys the valve body to get atf to critical parts quicker and provides quicker shifts.




What?
How does that work. Park is neutral,so how does that work.

 

[pjc360]

It doesnt circulate transmission fluid in park from the factory. But that's a feature that comes with the shift kit I bought.
I don't know why they don't circulate fluid in park, but it even says right on the dip stick check fluid level while warm and idling in nuetral.
So I try to let the truck idle in nuetral before taking off, specially in the winter and specially since I'm not running a synthetic atf to help the transmission fluid get warmed up.
So what do you guys think, redline d4 or valvoline maxlife? I read the maxlife is awfully thin, is that true?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
For some reason these old 727 based transmissions don't lube them selves in park, it has to be in neutral.


Do you mean to say the oil pump doesn't circulate ATF in Park?


Quote:
It doesnt circulate transmission fluid in park from the factory. But that's a feature that comes with the shift kit I bought.

I would like you to prove this is the case.

I have yet to see a transmission that doesn't have the engine input connected connected to an (internal) oil pump pressurizing the system. Unless the transmission has some weird disconnecting device and a special clutching system, I do not think this is the case.

Any time you have a turning shaft, that shaft is on a bearing which needs constant cooling. Fluid can only be cooled, via the radiators heat exchanger, if the fluid is pressurized and flowing.

 

[MolaKule]

According to this,

http://www.automaticchoice.com/uploads/producten/pdfs/Catalogue/tf8.pdf

the tranny has an oil pump connected to the input shaft, asssuming I am seeing this correctly.

 

[pjc360]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
According to this,

http://www.automaticchoice.com/uploads/producten/pdfs/Catalogue/tf8.pdf

the tranny has an oil pump connected to the input shaft, asssuming I am seeing this correctly.


I'm in the middle of getting the information you need proving my transmission doesnt circulate fluid in park. I don't know how or why but the owner of the transmission shop that re-built my transmission told me to let it warm up in nuetral and I asked a few guys on the mopar sites and they verified what he told me.

 

[zrxkawboy]

The 727 does not pump fluid in Park, only Neutral. I'm assuming the 518 is the same, but I'm not sure.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: pjc360
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
According to this,

http://www.automaticchoice.com/uploads/producten/pdfs/Catalogue/tf8.pdf

the tranny has an oil pump connected to the input shaft, asssuming I am seeing this correctly.


I'm in the middle of getting the information you need proving my transmission doesnt circulate fluid in park. I don't know how or why but the owner of the transmission shop that re-built my transmission told me to let it warm up in nuetral and I asked a few guys on the mopar sites and they verified what he told me.



I believe you,I'm just confused as to why.

Isn't park and neutral the same thing other than while in part there is a spline that creates the parking brake.

This could be exactly why many transmissions say to check the fluid level while in neutral and not in park.

Interesting.
Are chev trannies the same. Truck trannies for instance. My c3 has the 4 speed but the 80,not the 60.
I was told once that the 60 was a turbo 350 with an extra top gear and the 80 is a turbo 400 with an extra top gear.
I can't say whether that's true or not. Just what I heard.

 

[pjc360]

I'm getting the answer for you guys as soon as I can, I emailed a couple different people who are wizards with the 727 and A-518s.
I think it's somethng to do with the valve body that keeps it from circulating in park, because my shift kit from transgo says one you install the kit you will have fluid circulation in park.

 

[pjc360]

Yes the 4l60e is a th350 with overdrive and the 4l80e is the th-400 with overdrive, just like the A-518 is a chrysler 727 with overdrive. As far as the chevy trannys circulating fluid in park or not I don't know,
If it says to check fluid in nuetral it most likely doesn't circulate in park.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: pjc360
I'm getting the answer for you guys as soon as I can, I emailed a couple different people who are wizards with the 727 and A-518s.
I think it's somethng to do with the valve body that keeps it from circulating in park, because my shift kit from transgo says one you install the kit you will have fluid circulation in park.



I wonder why they are designed like that. Could it be to reduce drag on the engine at start up or............

I'm glad this thread was started. I learn something almost daily on bitog and this is one of those things I would have gotten wrong had I just assumed.

Thanks for starting the thread.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: pjc360
Yes the 4l60e is a th350 with overdrive and the 4l80e is the th-400 with overdrive, just like the A-518 is a chrysler 727 with overdrive. As far as the chevy trannys circulating fluid in park or not I don't know,
If it says to check fluid in nuetral it most likely doesn't circulate in park.



Thanks for that.


I'm pretty sure,though not positive,that my 99s and the 01 say to check hot and in neutral,and this explains exactly why.
My 01 C3 has a tranny temp gauge because it was built for towing. Tranny fluid doesn't heat up in any noticeable way when in park,but if I'm in neutral the temp gauge will slowly creep up,which implies,to me anyway,that in park the pump isn't pumping any fluid through the rad.
Enlightening

Many thanks for starting this thread. I'm going to make a point of monitoring trans temp during warm up in park and try it in neutral. If there's a difference I'll post about it,in my own thread though instead of polluting yours.

Thanks again. Great thread.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: zrxkawboy
The 727 does not pump fluid in Park, only Neutral. I'm assuming the 518 is the same, but I'm not sure.


Ok, but that begs the question, how do they do that?

On most transmissions the TC Impeller is connected to the flywheel flex plate with the turbine connected to the transmission's input shaft. The input shaft goes to the oil pump and the first set of internals.

There should be a way to determine if the oil pump is really engaged in Park or Neutral, or both.

In Park, the fluid level should be over the full mark, indicating no fluid is being sucked up from the sump and circulated.

In Neutral, the fluid level should be at the full mark, indicating fluid is being sucked up from the sump and circulated.

 

[zrxkawboy]

Great question, Mola. I am sure no AT expert, I've just always been told that fluid level is checked in N on the TF because fluid is not circulated in P.

I found a TF article by Tom Hand on Allpar, and here's what he said:
"There is also a hydraulic difference between neutral and park: the “Park” location of the manual valve (inside the valve body) allows fluid to leak from the valve, creating a line pressure drop. This low pressure in park keeps the converter from completely filling and loading the engine unnecessarily.

In neutral, the converter is filled and there are no “controlled leaks,” as in park. This is the reason Torqueflites should always have the level checked only in neutral. If you check the level in park, the level checks higher than it really is."

Here is a link to the full article: http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/torqueflite-tom-hand.html

So, it does pump fluid, it just allows it to leak out in the VB. Now we both know!

 

[clinebarger]

The A-518 And a lot of other Chrysler transmissions do not Charge the Converter or Flow ATF through the Cooler/Lube Circuit in Park, Several aftermarket company's sell Regulator Valves to correct flow in park, The Stock Regulator valve just dumps the ATF in Park. The ATF has to be checked in neutral. If the Trans overheats....High idle in neutral to cool it down.




ALL GM transmissions Charge the Converter in Park & Neutral, OK to check ATF in both positions.

The 700R4/4L60E is not based on a TH350, More of a 3rd cousin...

The Low/Reverse & Rear planet Area is very similar, The Center Support is identical between TH350 & Early 700R4's.
Late 700R4/4L60E have a wider Sprag in the Center Support, But updates all previous 700R4 & TH350.

4L80E's are based on TH400's.
200-4R's are based on TH200's

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: zrxkawboy
Great question, Mola. I am sure no AT expert, I've just always been told that fluid level is checked in N on the TF because fluid is not circulated in P.

I found a TF article by Tom Hand on Allpar, and here's what he said:
"There is also a hydraulic difference between neutral and park: the “Park” location of the manual valve (inside the valve body) allows fluid to leak from the valve, creating a line pressure drop. This low pressure in park keeps the converter from completely filling and loading the engine unnecessarily.

In neutral, the converter is filled and there are no “controlled leaks,” as in park. This is the reason Torqueflites should always have the level checked only in neutral. If you check the level in park, the level checks higher than it really is."

Here is a link to the full article: http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/torqueflite-tom-hand.html

So, it does pump fluid, it just allows it to leak out in the VB. Now we both know!

Thanks zrxkawboy that now makes sense.

So the oil pump does pump oil in Park, the control valve simply diverts some oil from completely filling the TC.

Then in Neutral, the control valve fills the TC and continues to pressurize the whole system.

The way the OP presented it, it appeared as if the oil pump was not engaged in Park, and I knew that could not be the case.

 

[pjc360]

Hey I said I thought it had something to do with the valve body, which I was correct. It Is a leak in the valve body that causes this.
I should have said the A-518 has limited fluid circulation in park.

 

[pjc360]

so what's your thoughts on running maxlife atf in a rebuilt transmission?
Are the seal conditioners going to be a problem in a fresh tranny?
The maxlife atf is the cheapest and easiest for me to obtain. So it is very tempting to try it, but I am nervouse about the whole high mileage conditioners and additives being put in a fresh rebuild.
Mobil 1 is simple enough to obtain, but it's quite a bit more expensive.
And of course redline d4 is really expensive too, same with amsoil.
I can't decide between maxlife and mobil 1.

 

[MolaKule]

You're putting a lot of cash into this tranny but you're trying to skimp on quality fluid?

You said earlier you wanted a DexIII equivalent which is why I suggested Redline D4.

 

[pjc360]

No I'm not trying to skimp on fluid, I thought valvoline maxlife atf and mobil 1 synthetic atf were good fluids, I mean I'm sure they are not in the same league as redline and amsoil, I guess redline d4 isn't much more then mobil 1 synthetic Atf.
I can get a case of redline d4 for around 140
Is the redline d4 that much better then maxlife? I was thinking maxlife because I've been told it's a qaulity fluid, it's super easy to obtain, and it is priced very well for a full synthetic atf.

 

[pjc360]

The only thing scaring me away from maxlife is the seal conditioners that's in it for higher mileage transmissions.