Synthetic Atf

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I know a lot of people who run type f atf in these transmissions with great success and that's even older fluid then dexron3.
I have considered trying type f for the firmer shifts type f would bring but I have been warned that type f lacks the lubricating properties to keep the overdrive unit lubricated. I have found 3 different synthetic type f fluids that I am considering trying after the planetery upgrade. Amsoil super shift is one and redline racing atf and royal purple makes a racing atf that's basically a synthetic type f too and I believe ati makes a super shift synthetic type f fluid.
Being synthetic that should be able to lube my overdrive unit and having low friction modifiers like regular type f would make it shift similar to the original type f fluid.


Unless you race the vehicle there is no reason to use Type F.

Type F has the same AW chemistry as the other fluids.

What it does lack are the friction modifiers that provide the proper dynamic friction coefficients used in the other types of ATFs.

 

[pjc360]

Ya I'm not racing it, it's a truck. But I wouldn't mind having firmer shifts, because I have always been told a firmer shifting transmission will last longer and stay cooler. That's what I was after in my thinking of running a synthetic type f.

 

[MolaKule]

If you want firmer shifts then have the tranny shop install a shift kit, but use say an ATF+4 equivalent.

 

[pjc360]

Yes I have a transgo shift kit and I will have it installed. I was just thinking shift kit and a synthetic type f would bring some firm shifts. What's a synthetic type f going to hurt? What's a synthetic type f going to do to this transmission?
I could see regular type f not holding up well to an overdrive tranny but a synthetic type f should have no problem at all.

 

[The_Eric]

Quick, firm shifts come from valve body work. Type F can firm up shifts, but won't quicken them. It lacks any friction modifiers, making it "grabby". You can make ATF +4 filled trannies bark tires every shift under part throttle if you're so inclined with the right things done to the valve body- but that's not any good for long term survivablility of the rest of your drive train.

I think you're overestimating your abuse and underestimating the transmission. Put a cooler on it, upgrade the hard parts if you're really going to turn the wick up, add whatever fluid you want and go to it. Just to give you an example- not apples to apples I know, but... My best friend has a 2005 Chevy 2500HD with 6.0/4L80E. Engine is 300HP/360TQ. He regularly pulls equipment, trailers and so on through fields, over the roads, up hills and so on. Most I've seen is 21,000lbs gross weight. Trans temp gauge never shows over 200 (usually never more than 150) degrees and all he runs is parts store branded Dex/Merc for at least 50k miles a shot. Trans doesn't care. Doesn't complain and comes back for more every time. Both your trans and my friend's 4L80E are anvils. Another example- look at all the service vans that are loaded 9,000+lbs, ask member SteveSRT8 about that. What about motor homes, cube vans and other medium duty apps these transmissions get stuffed in. They do fine.

Bottom line- you've been given some really sound advice by some really sharp people. MolaKule knows his stuff and is an oil formulator- if he says to do something, heed his advice.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: pjc360
Yes I have a transgo shift kit and I will have it installed. I was just thinking shift kit and a synthetic type f would bring some firm shifts. What's a synthetic type f going to hurt? What's a synthetic type f going to do to this transmission?
I could see regular type f not holding up well to an overdrive tranny but a synthetic type f should have no problem at all.


Here is the reason that Type F was developed by Ford:

Type F Development


Again, the correct shift kit should provide the proper clutch engagement timing and pressure profiles to provide quicker, firmer shifts.

The Type F ATF, in either mineral or synthetic bases is not compatible with a non-racing transmission internals. Type F may cause undue wear to the clutch plates and clutch disks.

 

[MolaKule]

Friction Modification in ATF's

 

[Oldmoparguy1]

I think your mechanic is correct about +4. All the of the pre-lockup TC trannies were specked for dextron 1,2,3. Some even have it stamped on the dipstick. That's what I always used. Any Dex-II equivalent ATF should be fine. If you are into crisp shifts, you might want to try a synthetic type F fluid.

Wayne

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: pjc360
I'm upgrading the front planeterys because I am going to be throwing a lot more power at this transmission after I have a stroker kit installed. With the stroker kit I will be around 450 horse and around 500 ft kbs of torque. Not to mention I am already throwing quite a bit of power at this transmission already with my horsepower being 320 and my torque being around 400 ft lbs.
I don't want to stroke my engine first just to have to tear the transmission down to put tougher parts in it because the stroker is too much for it. I have already destroyed multiple u-joints and driveshafts with the power it's making right now and I have destroyed a chrysler 9 1/4 rear axle with the power it's making right Now. I don't want to see what kind of condition the stock front planeterys are in after a few thousand miles of tough driving on it with around 500 ft lbs of torque. I'm not chancing it, especially when I'm only out 700 bucks to buy and have the tougher 6 pinion steel planeterys installed.


It's your money, Spend how you see fit. The internet tends to blow stuff out of proportion. For every failed Aluminum Planet....There are 100 that didn't at the same power level.

The Pinion count doesn't really matter in this particular application, A 3-pinion would survive.

 

[pjc360]

I have a friend who took a 360 magnum, same engine as me and he put a stroker kit in making it a 408 cid. He put a bigger cam in it and worked over magnum hads bumping compression up to 10.5:1.
On the dyno this engine made 462 horse power and 515 ft lbs of torque.
He put this engine in a 1993 dodge Dakota extended cab short bed truck, he bought a re-built A-518 non lock up transmission, same transmission as mine.
Within 5000 miles he started hearing a growling noise in the transmission while it was in first gear, he dropped the pan and found a bunch of metal pieces.
So he took it back to the transmission shop he bought it from because it was still under warranty, turns out the aluminum 4 pinion front planetery gear set was trashed, so he paid the money to have the 6 pinion Steele planetery installed, since then he has put another 10 thousand miles on the truck and the transmission is still going strong.
Thats why I plan on upgrading my front planetery gear set before adding the stroker kit to my engine, 700 bucks isn't that much money to have a much stronger planetery gear set installed. At least imo it's not.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: pjc360
I have a friend who took a 360 magnum, same engine as me and he put a stroker kit in making it a 408 cid. He put a bigger cam in it and worked over magnum hads bumping compression up to 10.5:1.
On the dyno this engine made 462 horse power and 515 ft lbs of torque.
He put this engine in a 1993 dodge Dakota extended cab short bed truck, he bought a re-built A-518 non lock up transmission, same transmission as mine.
Within 5000 miles he started hearing a growling noise in the transmission while it was in first gear, he dropped the pan and found a bunch of metal pieces.
So he took it back to the transmission shop he bought it from because it was still under warranty, turns out the aluminum 4 pinion front planetery gear set was trashed, so he paid the money to have the 6 pinion Steele planetery installed, since then he has put another 10 thousand miles on the truck and the transmission is still going strong.
Thats why I plan on upgrading my front planetery gear set before adding the stroker kit to my engine, 700 bucks isn't that much money to have a much stronger planetery gear set installed. At least imo it's not.


My view is not whether or not a 6-Pinion Steel planet is stronger than a 4-Pinion Aluminum planet, The Steel planetary carrier is obviously stronger, The Pinion count is another debate altogether & depends on GCWR of the vehicle.

Power/Torque will destroy (This particular Planet) in 2 ways.....The Carrier will crack/split, Or the Splines will strip.

Failure from a Worn/Fatigued Planet in a fresh unit is from sloppy work....The builder needs to learn to Cull parts that are worn.

I would Bet your friends failure is from the latter, His new found power surely made this happen faster,
The Pinions have to run "True" between the Sun Gear & Annulus Gear, If the Pinion Pin & Needle bearings are worn....Your inviting failure in the form of chipped teeth & the debris runs around in the Planetary.

If you did replace the Front Planet, Then the O/D or Rear Planet fails or a Clutch/Band burns-up, The work you had done would be for nothing.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Montana's winter will not be friendly to TypeF ATF. Even the full synths dont provide the -40 specs. Why would you want to strain the trans and pump with molasses thick atf when cold?

Use a full synthetic Dex3, Atf+4, or equivalent.

Dont use Type-F as a bandaid for a poorly built or tuned trans.

 

[gamefoo21]

I run a full synthetic universal in my Dad's Jeep with it's 3 speed auto. It shifts great, sharp when you are on it and softer when cruising, but you can always feel it shift and it's always quick.

The universal I put in, is compatible with Dex III and +4. It's gotten 2 years and 40,000km with that fluid, and there has been no degredation in shifts.

I use Redline D4 in the VW, and in everything with a 4L60e, I use Dex/Merc MaxLife, and that goes in a Ford AOD as well.

The non-RL stuff is all GRP-III which is just highly refined dino oil. It resists temperature, shearing, oxidizing, and is more stable than any Group II atf. In other words, it performs better, and lasts longer.

Lots of shops resist change, and some of it is purely driven by profits, cheaper ATF will shorten the life span of the tranny. It requires more maintenance, and basically brings them more return business more often.

Type-F is a bandaid like everyone else has said. I would also question why something as proven as a shift kit is a no go with that shop. Type-F will just wear stuff out quicker, and won't make up for the poor mechanical performance of the valve body. Shift kits are made specifically to address the weak points of the stock setup. It's like that 4L60e, it needs a pile of parts + a shift kit to make it not perform poorly. The point is that fluids and additives can mask the short comings but using Lucas snot will just burn it out faster, while the proper parts will greatly extend the trannies lifespan.

 

[pjc360]

I'm on the fence about trying maxlife atf or just sticking with normal dexron3.
I want to run a synthetic but the maxlife saying it's made for high mileage transmissions makes me nervouse since mine is brand new.
Clinebarger, it's certainly possible whoever built the a-518 my friend purchased didn't have the front planetery gears put together right. He did say the transmission had a little whine to it in first gear while going slow, but my fresh re-build does that as well.
My transmission had a 2 year warranty from the shop that built it and that expired in September of 2013. I did bring the truck back to thier shop and I took the owner of the shop for a ride in it and pointed out the noise to him and he told me that's just normal planetery gear noise, he said every A-518 he's ever put together made a little planetery gear noise.
So with my friend destroying his front planetery gear set after turning up the power on his ride and with my re-built transmission making a little noise while in first gear that has me concerned enough to just go ahead and have the steel planeterys put in, as far as pinion count the guy told me he could do 5 or 6 pinion steel planeterys.
I'm not sure if the planetery gear noise from my truck is normal or not, I did take it to a second shop and had the owner of the 2nd shop go for a ride with me and I pointed it out to him and he said well I don't hear any grinding or growling, he said it is definitely making gear noise in first gear and he said it is normal and acceptable to hear a little gear noise and he said in the case of your transmission I wouldn't consider it an un-acceptable noise because it's not grinding or growling and it shifts very well, he commented on how nice it shifted and how the shifts were timed perfectly, he said this transmission shifts like it's brand new. I didn't tell the 2nd shop I took it to that I had just had it re-built by a different shop.
The owner of the 2nd shop is who quoted me 700 dollars to put a steel 6 pinion front planetery in it.
I told him I was planning on buying a stroker kit and I told him what happened to my friends A-518 and he said when you get around 500 ft lbs of torque its a good idea to just go ahead and upgrade the front planetery on these 727 based transmissions.

 

[MolaKule]

If you are going to all the trouble of beefing up the internals then I recommend you use a full synthetic Dexron such as D4.


Redline D4 ATF

 

[clinebarger]

It depends on how loud it is, Even then it's subjective.
T-727's have 2 Planets (Overdrive's (518's have 3), The front & rear Planet's are running in 1st gear, Makes for a loud 1st gear. Compared to a TH400 that only has 1 Planetary, The 4L80E O/D version has 2....Makes a quieter running unit.

I must admit, $700 for parts & labor is a good deal, And it makes you feel better.....That's all that matters!

 

[pjc360]

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
It depends on how loud it is, Even then it's subjective.
T-727's have 2 Planets (Overdrive's (518's have 3), The front & rear Planet's are running in 1st gear, Makes for a loud 1st gear. Compared to a TH400 that only has 1 Planetary, The 4L80E O/D version has 2....Makes a quieter running unit.

I must admit, $700 for parts & labor is a good deal, And it makes you feel better.....That's all that matters!


Exactly it depends on how loud it is, which is exactly what the owner of the second shop told me.
I took him for a good 20 to 30 minute ride with me through town where we were stopping and going a lot because of the street lights and he told me that in his opinion it wasn't anything to be concerned about and that it was acceptable planetery gear noise.
That's when I said well I owned a 76 power wagon with a 727 and my father had built 727 in his truck and in his 70 Plymouth Cuda and I don't recall ever hearing this noise in any of them three 727s, and that's when he told me the a-518 does have an extra set of planeterys that are moving in first gear.
The owner of the shop that re-built my a-518 also said the noise was normal planetery gear noise and he must of been pretty confident that it was normal planetery gear noise because I had him write me a note that stated I brought the truck to him at this date concerned about the noise the transmission was making while in first gear and the he the owner inspected and listened to the noise and determined it was normal planetery gear noise, and he wrote up that note for me and signed and dated it, and at that point I still had a year and a half on my two year warranty.
So Im not 100 percent sure, I don't know enough about transmissions to make the call as to wether that's normal planetery gear noise or not. But having 2 different transmission shop owners tell me that it's nothing to worry about and that's it's acceptable planetery gear noise makes me lean towords thinking that it most likely is normal planetery gear noise.
The owner of the shop that re-built my transmission said he gave me new planetery gears through out the entire transmission, he said everything was replaced and the recipt shows that everything was replaced and I sure as [censored] paid a hefty price. But before throwing even more power at this transmission it just makes sense to me to go ahead and have the front planeterys upgraded to steel planeterys, I mean it's only 700 bucks and having steel front planeterys is good insurance. I have done a bit of reading online about the A-518 and even the diesel guys are having the front planeterys upgraded when going over 500 ft lbs of torque, which I will exceed with a stroker kit.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: pjc360
I have done a bit of reading online about the A-518 and even the diesel guys are having the front planeterys upgraded when going over 500 ft lbs of torque, which I will exceed with a stroker kit.


A 6BT Diesel with 400 ft lbs at 1600rpm pulling a 10,000 pound trailer & the 7,000 pound truck is harder on the Trans/Planets than a 400ci LA small block making 500 ft lbs at 3000+ rpm in a empty 5,500 pound truck, An apples to oranges comparison.

I am not telling you that upgrades are bad! But if you had a new OEM/NOS Planetary installed....Run It!

 

[pjc360]

the owner of the shop that re-built my trans did say he put oem planeterys in it.
I guess I could invest that 700 dollars into something else. If I put a good synthetic fluid in it along with my two coolers and installed a temp gauge to watch temps I'd most likely be just fine. I still am going to have the shift kit installed though, main reason I want the shift kit installed is because it has a feature that makes the transmission lube its self while in park.
For some reason these old 727 based transmissions don't lube them selves in park, it has to be in neutral. I am pretty anal about making sure I let the truck warm up while in nuetral to get the fluid circulating through the transmission, but every once in awhile I forget, so it would be nice for it to circulate while in park. Plus it modifys the valve body to get atf to critical parts quicker and provides quicker shifts.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
For some reason these old 727 based transmissions don't lube them selves in park, it has to be in neutral.


Do you mean to say the oil pump doesn't circulate ATF in Park?