Synthetic and rocker arm wear ?? Help!

[LSVTEC 91 Civic]

http://www.webcamshafts.com/readme/congratulations.jpg

After doing some research on worn rocker arms with aftermarket cams, I'm being told to stop running synthetic oil. Web wants me to run a Kendall or Valvoline. I PMed a member on Honda-Tech and had a chat with him about this...

quote:

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LSVTEC 91 Civic (3:24 PM 4/27/2005): Question - I'm running Web billet cams, should I worry about my rocker arms, too?
LSVTEC 91 Civic (3:24 PM 4/27/2005): Web recommends a straight 30 non synthetic oil with their cams, any reasoning behind that?
Rocket (3:34 PM 4/27/2005): Synthetics are deficient in ant-wear additives like ZDDP. Run Kendall GT-1 Non-synthetic.
LSVTEC 91 Civic (3:36 PM 4/27/2005): Intresting. I'm currently running either Amsoil or GC...
Rocket (3:36 PM 4/27/2005): nah, just do kendall or Valvoline racing.
LSVTEC 91 Civic (3:37 PM 4/27/2005): How is the rest of my motor going to like a Dino oil? I've never ran anything but an ACEA-A3 Full synthetic in it...
Rocket (3:40 PM 4/27/2005): will like it fine.
The major advantage to syn. is that it doesn't break down as fast so you don't have to change it as often. As for slipperyness it's not any different IMO.
LSVTEC 91 Civic (3:41 PM 4/27/2005): Intresting, will a dino affect bearing wear any?
Rocket (3:49 PM 4/27/2005): nope.
LSVTEC 91 Civic (3:53 PM 4/27/20

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How do you all take this? I'm currently an Amsoil / GC user... but if a syn causes my rockers to wear, then I'll stop using it.

What does everybody here think???

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by LSVTEC 91 Civic:
Synthetics are deficient in ant-wear additives like ZDDP. Run Kendall GT-1 Non-synthetic.

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This is completely false. Check out the VOAs almost all SM oil has around the same amount of ZDP(the maxium). I'd venture to say that most synthetics have more AW then most dino oils.

-T

 

[Drew99GT]

Well, Kendal GT-1 "non synthetic" has very large % of group 3, so that recomendation is bunk based on that guys advice. I don't have a clue where this schmuck gets the "synthetics have less ZDDP" BS. Some synthetics do, and pretty much all dinos do now as well thanks to GF-4. You don't even have rocker arms, so why are you worried about that? Don't have any gripe about VR-1 Valvoline; it IS a great oil, but so is the GC your running. That web cams advice has been debunked here numerous times. Yea, I guess EVERY top tier profesional motorsports team that uses synthetic oil is rubbing their cams away..............

BS

 

[DR Racing]

I have talked to Steve owner of webcam on the phone about this as I too have webcams in my acura. Steve is right to a certain degree about straight weight HT/HS stable and he has had some failures with synthetic oil with users of his products but some of the conclusions he draws are flawed. The problem is not synthetic oil but what synthetic is used and how it is used. Some people think they can get away with thinner oil because it is synthetic, Wrong. Also some synthetics are barely in grade like M1 xw-30 oils. With big cams and springs you need to make sure the oil you use is thick enough and will stay that way. Amsoil has plenty of ZDDP in it. I am going to use Amsoil ACD in my teg with the Webcams it is 10w-30/30 with no VII in it for completely stable HT/HS. I have a case of Kendal GT1 straight 30w if you interested in it. Dan

 

[LSVTEC 91 Civic]

quote:

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Originally posted by DR Racing:
I have talked to Steve owner of webcam on the phone about this as I too have webcams in my acura. Steve is right to a certain degree about straight weight HT/HS stable and he has had some failures with synthetic oil with users of his products but some of the conclusions he draws are flawed. The problem is not synthetic oil but what synthetic is used and how it is used. Some people think they can get away with thinner oil because it is synthetic, Wrong. Also some synthetics are barely in grade like M1 xw-30 oils. With big cams and springs you need to make sure the oil you use is thick enough and will stay that way. Amsoil has plenty of ZDDP in it. I am going to use Amsoil ACD in my teg with the Webcams it is 10w-30/30 with no VII in it for completely stable HT/HS. I have a case of Kendal GT1 straight 30w if you interested in it. Dan

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Just the advice I was looking for, Thanks Dan. I'll be sticking with GC then. :thumbup:

 

[Mulaka]

If this is true about M1 xw-30 oils, then how thin is the M1 5w-20!!!!

 

[DR Racing]

Here is the viscosity chart, find a M1 5w-20 spec sheet and compare http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html

 

[427Z06]

According to a GM engineer, the problem with certain valvetrain designs is that they're heavily dependent on the AW additives, commonly ZDDP, and use it up much more quickly. An example is the old SBC/BBC with flat tappet lifters.

I'm going to guess that people who use synthetics of "lower" viscosity, in certain engine designs, in an extended drain intervals, just very well may be reaching ZDDP "depletion", thus their experiences with wear in their valvetrains.

If you want to run synthetics, a solution may be to supplement it with something such as:

http://www.specialtyformulations.com/index_files/Page921.htm

Consult with the manufacturers of this product, they may be able to provide some insight.

Another option may be synthetics from RedLine or Synergy that already have a large quantity of AW additves in them. Good luck. I hope that helped.

 

[willkie]

If you check your UOA for the wear on the engine
then you will see what the wear looks like with
your engine with your driving habits. I had
a 84 Prelude 1.8 l that was fine with the lighter
oil in town but showed much higher wear on long distance highspeed trips 4k rpm. I mixed 10-30
and 15-50 and the wear was perfect. If you dont run the UOA you are operating in the dark.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
synthetic HDEOs - "mixed fleet" 5w-40 viscosity in particular are especially good at minimising valve train component and camshaft wear

I have extensive evidence to support the comment!

Modern non synthetic mixed fleet HDEOs are also excellent at minimising valve train wear

Regards
Doug

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

I think the problem is more with Web cams than the oil. Last I recall Web cams were reground cams, which if still true is the real problem. Once you ground a layer off of a chilled cast factory core you end up with weaker metal, and higher ramps combines to cause higher wear. With a straight 30 weight you are going to get more engine wear at start up in other areas of the engine, other than the cams. No one runs straight weights on the street. There is a reason why I always used Jun cams (though Toda, Crower, Skunk etc.. are just as good)on my modified Hondas, chilled cast new cams are the only way to go if you care about reliability in the long term. None of those manufacturers care about the oil you use because their cams will hold up.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil:
I think the problem is more with Web cams than the oil. Last I recall Web cams were reground cams, which if still true is the real problem. Once you ground a layer off of a chilled cast factory core you end up with weaker metal, and higher ramps combines to cause higher wear.

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If this is true, forget what I said above. I was under the impression these were high quality billet steel cams.

 

[DR Racing]

For most apps there is nothing wrong with a reground cams and webcam knows what they are doing that's why they are in my car. LSVTEC 91 Civic states he is using web billet cams as I am too and webcam still offers a regrind option. One mistake a lot of VTEC cam grinders make is to make the base circle the stock size with a higher lift causing the lobe to wipe over the edge of the rocker pad causing a failure. I have been using webcam products for almost 30 years and would recommend them very highly. Dan Ruddock

 

[T-Keith]

How do you make the base circle the stock size and have more then stock lift with a reground cam? Wouldn't you be adding material? Isn't the point of regrinding a cam to reduce the base circle so the proper lift can be achieved?

I agree with Idrinkmotoroil, there is no reason you should need to run straight weight oil in a modern engine, sounds like some severally out of date knowledge from that cam company.

-T

 

[DR Racing]

On the stock base circle issue I was referring to billet cams not regrinds. The billet webcams in my car have a base circle slightly smaller than a stock cam @ 1.125" vs stock 1.160" to guarantee against rocker pad edge scuff problems. Regrinds will have even smaller base circles. Straight weight oil have less shear problems than multigrade's but with modern synthetic oils it requires very little VII and of a more stable variety. I like Amsoil ACD 10w-30 with no VII. Dan

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

I gotta think this non-synthetic oil theory is just one more urban myth out there in the oil community. It highly resembles as story told to me by a friend of mine, I didnt' believe him when he told it to me and I still don't believe it. But here it is.

A friend of mine is a well respected engine builder, primarily building Honda race engines for the racing community all over North America, and even doing some development work with Honda America. Anywho, a while back I asked him what oil he likes best and he straight out said 20w-50 non-synthetic, and his favourite was Kendall. I asked him why he wouldn't use Synthetic oil and he commented that he had too many engine failures when they used synthetic oil in their race engines. One year he was sponsored by Valvoline and Valvoline gave him a large supply of synthetic 20w-50 oil to use. That season he had the largest amount of failures when using the synthetic oil, so he switched back to Kendall non-synthetic and had better reliability. I asked him why synthetic might be worse, and he said that it didn't have enough phosphorous in it, and phosphorous made the oil cling to the metal parts. The non-synthetic oil had more phosphorous according to him and that made it work better. He is one of those old school engine builders. I don't know, maybe he just had a string of bad luck during the synthetic period or maybe Valvoline's synthetic was crap. Hard to say, but his story seems to mirror the opinion mentioned above in this thread. Lots of variables come into play when you have a highly modified engine that is driven hard or raced. IMO, It's hard to blame an oil unless you have direct evidence, because so many things can go wrong on a highly strung engine.

 

[DR Racing]

Hey, Idrinkmotoroil which tastes better dino or synth

seriously you right on this racers rely on trial and error a lot. Dan

 

[fuel tanker man]

Bottom of this page... http://www.crower.com/misc/faq.shtml#h

Crower recommends AGAINST synthetics also.

I called them up. They say it's a zinc/phos issue they're concerned about. Oddly, they recommend Kendall GT-1 dino oil. According to Kendall's own specs, it doesn't have any more ZDDP in it than Mobil 1 15W50.

I mentioned this fact to the tech at Crower. All he could say is that in their own in-house testing, the dinos reduced lobe wear.

I'm not coming down on either side of this debate--just stirrin' the pot.

Dan

 

[TooSlick]

I can't vouch for other synthetics, but Amsoil will work extremely well in this application. I'd probably start w/ their 5w-40, but they make 5-6 formulations that will do well here.

Rocket doesn't have a clue what he's talking about ....That's a very diplomatic response for me ...

Tooslick

 

[T-Keith]

It's funny that most of these "bad synthetic" stories end up back at Kendal motor oil. Can't be a coincidence.

-T