Say you have a PP , M1 or Valvoline synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen 2 rated oil versus the same brand series synthetic 10W30 : What would I be giving up (if anything) in the way of protection or other key criteria if I use the 10W30 without the D1/Gen 2 approvals ? ... Is an oil company going to spend the money and time to make the 10W30 formulation that much different from the D1/Gen 2 rated 5W30 ?
Synthetic 5W30 D1/Gen2 vs. Synthetic 10W30 ?
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Personally, I can't see there being a huge difference in formulation, assuming it's the same product tier, and that they're not using a legacy formula. If they're formulated the same, the only key criteria you're giving up is that the 10w-XX doesn't meet their cold numbers requirements. Some might worry under warranty. Others won't.
*Yes , other than the obvious cold temp requirement / difference.
Originally Posted by Garak
Personally, I can't see there being a huge difference in formulation, assuming it's the same product tier, and that they're not using a legacy formula. If they're formulated the same, the only key criteria you're giving up is that the 10w-XX doesn't meet their cold numbers requirements. Some might worry under warranty. Others won't.
Originally Posted by Garak
Personally, I can't see there being a huge difference in formulation, assuming it's the same product tier, and that they're not using a legacy formula. If they're formulated the same, the only key criteria you're giving up is that the 10w-XX doesn't meet their cold numbers requirements. Some might worry under warranty. Others won't.
Good question. I think the only reason GM don't allow a 10W30 Dexos oil is that they want all Dexos oils to be suitable for all climates. So a non-oil person (most of the world, and half of the mechanics I know) can just grab a jug labeled Dexos1 and know it will work. No need to match viscosity grades to climates.
I personally think a good name brand (PP, M1, Edge, VAS) 10W-30 with both SN-Plus and Euro A5/B5 will match any Dexos1-Gen2 oil for overall quality.
I personally think a good name brand (PP, M1, Edge, VAS) 10W-30 with both SN-Plus and Euro A5/B5 will match any Dexos1-Gen2 oil for overall quality.
In addition to that, which is certainly true, wanting a more suitable all climate oil, GM had, prior to dexos1, already had shelved 10w-30 recommendations in gassers. There wouldn't be a lot of point in going backwards, despite the fact that most of us here can make viscosity decisions. For me, if it can't be used all year, it goes way down on my list of choices.
Though, for something like ChrisD46's Valvoline Advanced 5w-30 versus their 10w-30, I wouldn't expect a big formulation difference. The additive package should be much the same and I certainly can't see the Noack going through the roof by some magic.
Though, for something like ChrisD46's Valvoline Advanced 5w-30 versus their 10w-30, I wouldn't expect a big formulation difference. The additive package should be much the same and I certainly can't see the Noack going through the roof by some magic.
Wouldn't the Dexos 1 approved oil have to meet tighter/better performance requirements with respect to piston cleanliness, deposit control and oxidative/thermal stability over and above GF-5? You already have the LSPI thing addressed with the SN+, so no worries there if you're a GDI owner..
If I'm not mistaken when GF-6 comes out next spring, it will essentially incorporates all those D1G2 performance requirements plus address timing chain wear???
If I'm not mistaken when GF-6 comes out next spring, it will essentially incorporates all those D1G2 performance requirements plus address timing chain wear???
The dexos1 has those requirements, but the question here is how different would the 5w-30 dexos1 licensed synthetic be in comparison to the 10w-30 of the same tier. That is, would it be essentially a dexos1 pass except for grade?
Take PP 5w-30, for instance. When it was reformulated for dexos1 Gen 2, was 10w-30 also reformulated the same way, by additive package, or did they leave that one grade alone? I should think it would all be done at the same time, but I really wouldn't have a concrete answer for that. I couldn't see having three grades using the new dexos1 package and the one grade using the old one, but I certainly couldn't verify that.
Take PP 5w-30, for instance. When it was reformulated for dexos1 Gen 2, was 10w-30 also reformulated the same way, by additive package, or did they leave that one grade alone? I should think it would all be done at the same time, but I really wouldn't have a concrete answer for that. I couldn't see having three grades using the new dexos1 package and the one grade using the old one, but I certainly couldn't verify that.
Originally Posted by Garak
The dexos1 has those requirements, but the question here is how different would the 5w-30 dexos1 licensed synthetic be in comparison to the 10w-30 of the same tier. That is, would it be essentially a dexos1 pass except for grade?
Take PP 5w-30, for instance. When it was reformulated for dexos1 Gen 2, was 10w-30 also reformulated the same way, by additive package, or did they leave that one grade alone? I should think it would all be done at the same time, but I really wouldn't have a concrete answer for that. I couldn't see having three grades using the new dexos1 package and the one grade using the old one, but I certainly couldn't verify that.
Oh I see. It could in fact be of a D1G2 performance level but without the license. Could be... maybe the ROI isn't there (relatively low sales volume in the PCMO market?) at a 10w30, to justify the licensing cost???
The dexos1 has those requirements, but the question here is how different would the 5w-30 dexos1 licensed synthetic be in comparison to the 10w-30 of the same tier. That is, would it be essentially a dexos1 pass except for grade?
Take PP 5w-30, for instance. When it was reformulated for dexos1 Gen 2, was 10w-30 also reformulated the same way, by additive package, or did they leave that one grade alone? I should think it would all be done at the same time, but I really wouldn't have a concrete answer for that. I couldn't see having three grades using the new dexos1 package and the one grade using the old one, but I certainly couldn't verify that.
Oh I see. It could in fact be of a D1G2 performance level but without the license. Could be... maybe the ROI isn't there (relatively low sales volume in the PCMO market?) at a 10w30, to justify the licensing cost???
They can't even license since GM requires a 5w-XX or a 0w-XX ILSAC to start.
Quote
What would I be giving up (if anything) in the way of protection or other key criteria if I use the 10W30 without the D1/Gen 2 approvals ?
I would never think of it that way. I think of it as what I give up to choose a 5w-30 vs. a 10w-30. Weaker base oil, more VII's to make a slightly better extreme cold pumpability. Unless I really need that extra flow at -30c (for 5w) that 10w has at -25c, I'm not making that trade down.
What would I be giving up (if anything) in the way of protection or other key criteria if I use the 10W30 without the D1/Gen 2 approvals ?
I would never think of it that way. I think of it as what I give up to choose a 5w-30 vs. a 10w-30. Weaker base oil, more VII's to make a slightly better extreme cold pumpability. Unless I really need that extra flow at -30c (for 5w) that 10w has at -25c, I'm not making that trade down.
I've been wondering the exact same thing. I want to run mobile 1 10W-30 high mileage in our turbo engine because of the bump I get in HTHS, however I'm somewhat afraid I'll lose my timing chain & LSPI protection. With both fuel dilution and the extra heat this engine makes it would be nice to use something at 3.5 or higher.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Wouldn't the Dexos 1 approved oil have to meet tighter/better performance requirements with respect to piston cleanliness, deposit control and oxidative/thermal stability over and above GF-5? You already have the LSPI thing addressed with the SN+, so no worries there if you're a GDI owner..
Yes Dexos does require more performance, which is why you need another spec like Euro (ACEA) A5/B5 or A3/B3/B4 to ensure these (or similar) better performance requirements are met. I think it's harder to meet A5/B5 than Dexos1 given how few Dexos1-Gen2 oils also carry A5/B5. However M1 5W30 and PP 5W30 are both D1G2 and A5/B5.
I don't think it's price holding the others back from claiming the Euro ACEA specs as these are mostly self certified and cost very little to claim. It's not a license rather a performance claim you need to establish.
Unfortunately 10W30 is not allowed as a Dexos viscosity grade, however it's fine to make any Euro spec it meets.
Originally Posted by Ammofirst
I want to run mobile 1 10W-30 high mileage in our turbo engine because of the bump I get in HTHS, however I'm somewhat afraid I'll lose my timing chain & LSPI protection. With both fuel dilution and the extra heat this engine makes it would be nice to use something at 3.5 or higher.
Vanilla M1 10W30 is A5/B5 (low HTHS)
M1 10W30 High Mileage is A3/B3 (high HTHS)
So both are high quality full synthetic oils. They are also both SN-Plus for LSPI protection.
Wouldn't the Dexos 1 approved oil have to meet tighter/better performance requirements with respect to piston cleanliness, deposit control and oxidative/thermal stability over and above GF-5? You already have the LSPI thing addressed with the SN+, so no worries there if you're a GDI owner..
Yes Dexos does require more performance, which is why you need another spec like Euro (ACEA) A5/B5 or A3/B3/B4 to ensure these (or similar) better performance requirements are met. I think it's harder to meet A5/B5 than Dexos1 given how few Dexos1-Gen2 oils also carry A5/B5. However M1 5W30 and PP 5W30 are both D1G2 and A5/B5.
I don't think it's price holding the others back from claiming the Euro ACEA specs as these are mostly self certified and cost very little to claim. It's not a license rather a performance claim you need to establish.
Unfortunately 10W30 is not allowed as a Dexos viscosity grade, however it's fine to make any Euro spec it meets.
Originally Posted by Ammofirst
I want to run mobile 1 10W-30 high mileage in our turbo engine because of the bump I get in HTHS, however I'm somewhat afraid I'll lose my timing chain & LSPI protection. With both fuel dilution and the extra heat this engine makes it would be nice to use something at 3.5 or higher.
Vanilla M1 10W30 is A5/B5 (low HTHS)
M1 10W30 High Mileage is A3/B3 (high HTHS)
So both are high quality full synthetic oils. They are also both SN-Plus for LSPI protection.
*Could M1 10W30 HM and vanilla M1 10W30 be the best of the 10W30 synthetics ?
Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Wouldn't the Dexos 1 approved oil have to meet tighter/better performance requirements with respect to piston cleanliness, deposit control and oxidative/thermal stability over and above GF-5? You already have the LSPI thing addressed with the SN+, so no worries there if you're a GDI owner..
Yes Dexos does require more performance, which is why you need another spec like Euro (ACEA) A5/B5 or A3/B3/B4 to ensure these (or similar) better performance requirements are met. I think it's harder to meet A5/B5 than Dexos1 given how few Dexos1-Gen2 oils also carry A5/B5. However M1 5W30 and PP 5W30 are both D1G2 and A5/B5.
I don't think it's price holding the others back from claiming the Euro ACEA specs as these are mostly self certified and cost very little to claim. It's not a license rather a performance claim you need to establish.
Unfortunately 10W30 is not allowed as a Dexos viscosity grade, however it's fine to make any Euro spec it meets.
Originally Posted by Ammofirst
I want to run mobile 1 10W-30 high mileage in our turbo engine because of the bump I get in HTHS, however I'm somewhat afraid I'll lose my timing chain & LSPI protection. With both fuel dilution and the extra heat this engine makes it would be nice to use something at 3.5 or higher.
Vanilla M1 10W30 is A5/B5 (low HTHS)
M1 10W30 High Mileage is A3/B3 (high HTHS)
So both are high quality full synthetic oils. They are also both SN-Plus for LSPI protection.
Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Wouldn't the Dexos 1 approved oil have to meet tighter/better performance requirements with respect to piston cleanliness, deposit control and oxidative/thermal stability over and above GF-5? You already have the LSPI thing addressed with the SN+, so no worries there if you're a GDI owner..
Yes Dexos does require more performance, which is why you need another spec like Euro (ACEA) A5/B5 or A3/B3/B4 to ensure these (or similar) better performance requirements are met. I think it's harder to meet A5/B5 than Dexos1 given how few Dexos1-Gen2 oils also carry A5/B5. However M1 5W30 and PP 5W30 are both D1G2 and A5/B5.
I don't think it's price holding the others back from claiming the Euro ACEA specs as these are mostly self certified and cost very little to claim. It's not a license rather a performance claim you need to establish.
Unfortunately 10W30 is not allowed as a Dexos viscosity grade, however it's fine to make any Euro spec it meets.
Originally Posted by Ammofirst
I want to run mobile 1 10W-30 high mileage in our turbo engine because of the bump I get in HTHS, however I'm somewhat afraid I'll lose my timing chain & LSPI protection. With both fuel dilution and the extra heat this engine makes it would be nice to use something at 3.5 or higher.
Vanilla M1 10W30 is A5/B5 (low HTHS)
M1 10W30 High Mileage is A3/B3 (high HTHS)
So both are high quality full synthetic oils. They are also both SN-Plus for LSPI protection.
Originally Posted by ChrisD46
*Could M1 10W30 HM and vanilla M1 10W30 be the best of the 10W30 synthetics ?
You also have M1 10W30 EP which is also SN-Plus and A5/B5
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf
M1 10W30 EP
KV100 = 10.2 cSt
HTHS = 3.1 cP
Density = 0.856
Spec's = SN-Plus and A5/B5
M1 10W30 HM
KV100 = 12.1 cSt
HTHS = 3.5 cSt
Density = 0.861
Spec's = SN-Plus and A3/B3
M1 10W30 vanilla
KV100 = 10.1 cSt
HTHS = 3.0 cSt
Density = 0.859
Spec's = SN-Plus and A5/B5
All are good, but the EP and the HM would be my top 2 picks.
Given the Pennzoil Plat 5W30 is also A5/B5 I don't know why PP 10W30 isn't as well. I haven't kept up to date with Valvoline Adv Syn or Castrol Edge (in the USA), but you get the idea.
*Could M1 10W30 HM and vanilla M1 10W30 be the best of the 10W30 synthetics ?
You also have M1 10W30 EP which is also SN-Plus and A5/B5
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf
M1 10W30 EP
KV100 = 10.2 cSt
HTHS = 3.1 cP
Density = 0.856
Spec's = SN-Plus and A5/B5
M1 10W30 HM
KV100 = 12.1 cSt
HTHS = 3.5 cSt
Density = 0.861
Spec's = SN-Plus and A3/B3
M1 10W30 vanilla
KV100 = 10.1 cSt
HTHS = 3.0 cSt
Density = 0.859
Spec's = SN-Plus and A5/B5
All are good, but the EP and the HM would be my top 2 picks.
Given the Pennzoil Plat 5W30 is also A5/B5 I don't know why PP 10W30 isn't as well. I haven't kept up to date with Valvoline Adv Syn or Castrol Edge (in the USA), but you get the idea.
Looking at this PDS. https://cglapps.chevron.com/sdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=518483&docFormat=PDF
There are no apparent difference in the additive package between 5w30 and 10w30. There is a difference in base oil and VII (noack and viscosity index demonstrate this.)
I can see no good economic or manufacturing reason to keep two additive product streams for a selection of ILSAC oils.
There are no apparent difference in the additive package between 5w30 and 10w30. There is a difference in base oil and VII (noack and viscosity index demonstrate this.)
I can see no good economic or manufacturing reason to keep two additive product streams for a selection of ILSAC oils.
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Matrix formulation is gonna bump the 10w30 into the same wear performance. The drop in VII content would help cleanliness. The crankability (10w) is going to bump the Dexos label off those bottles. If you can crank the 10w, I would say it's better in the long run.
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