Synth and HDEO "detergency" Any before/after pics?

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6,902
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Louisiana
I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer but can anyone show me incontravertable proof of an engine's internals that were "cleaned up" using only an HDEO or synth? I just see all these people posting things like "Just use xxxx type of oil and the "detergency" will clean things right up." Yet, I've never seen anyone come back and say "Yeah, look at these before after photos! BrandX cleaned it right up after x amount of oil changes." Arx is the only thing I have seen come close and it itself seems to need all the planets aligned to work sometimes. Now, I don't want to turn philosophical here and turn the thread into a debate over "What is a CLEAN engine?" or anything else. I just want to see if anyone has documented experience with oils cleaning a horribly dirty engine. No engines that have been run since day 1 with synth just to show how clean they are. That's not the point. Also, please don't post pics bragging about the 20k of synth cleaning your engine to the point where all it needed as a simple scrub down with diesel fuel inside or an easy hot tanking to look brand new. [Big Grin]
 
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NEPA
The best "evidence" you might see is in reports of sticking lifters freeing up and the tap going away after using a high detergentcy or premium oil.
 

BrianWC

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While that may be support in some cases, I think there are too many variables. I just cringe when I see people thinking that a fill of M1 or Delo is going to cure all their ills, doing 200 mile OCIs and the like. Plenty of folks take pics under the valve cover and a few of us go even further..surely one of these miraculously cleaned engines has been photographed. I'm quite guilty of looking before I leap and just want to make sure others don't do the same. If it works, it works, if it doesn't, we need to stop rattling it off.
 
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New York
If you can wait about a year or so, I'll happily post pics when I pull the valve cover after 20k or so miles on Rotella T Syn, following the PO's 100k on dino. 99 SAAB 9-5 2.3 LPT. FWIW, I'm not expecting miracles. Frankly, I'll be happy with any improvement, but I'm not betting money that I'll see any.
 
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Pottstown, PA
The problem is, Brian ..you've got to have a dirty engine to begin with. Now if 02Pilot will pull a cover and snap an image now ..then do it in 20k ..you might get your answer. Most won't know what it looks like. If those who know what it looks like ..don't like it ..they're probably going to do something more immediate (Auto-Rx- other flushes/cleaners).
 

BrianWC

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Yeouch 02Pilot, seeing as I own a 01 SAAB 9-5 lpt, let me tell you what's gonna happen.... As an aside, if you're SURE it was always on dino, gimme a yell and I'll help give you a checklist of what to do/look for if you haven't done so already. Gary, you are correct, but as you see, some folks are willing to go the HDEO route. I have heard many a person say things like "Do a quick flush with Rotella or Delo.." Then lets not forget the countless posts on here where people believe M1 is going to clean things up. If I can just get some good arx-quality "before" pics.
 
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Ontario, Canada
BrianWC - I've thought exactly the same thing as you. I too have thought that much of this advice is just "feel good" stuff with no real scientific basis, and certainly no pics from anyone to prove. That doesn't mean that it won't work In private conversation, I've been warned by some of the professionals on here that running diesel oils with high detergent packages in a gas engine *can* actually create more deposits in some cases, rather than clean up exisiting deposits. Yet, there's no shortage of people offering advice to run HDEO and clean up that engine.
 

BrianWC

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Yes, I've heard it a couple of times myself. I know they can form supposedly hard deposits in the CC in excessive amounts but don't know the threshold. As far as feel good, yeah, I've thought the same thing sometimes. With regard to lifter tick, I have had more than one car where it was here today gone tomorrow with no apparent reason or input from me. That's the main reason I worry about it being used as an indicator of anything.
 
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Dixie
Back when I started using Amsoil in the late 1970's,it was formulated with a diester basestock. I saw rather dramatic cleaning effects on engines that had high mileage and were using the group I petroleum oils available at the time. It was actually possible to clog up a new oil filter within 1000 miles after changing over to the synthetic. The varnish buildup on the dipstick would also be removed over time. Any synthetic that has a significant ester content, either diesters or polyolesters, will slowly clean pre-existing deposits. My experience has been that it may take up to 10k miles for this process to fully work. ARX works on the same basic principle, it's simply more concentrated. I don't think that petroleum based HDEO's do much cleaning at all on hardened deposits. TS
 
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Dixie
Ray, Yes, that and control of high temp deposits on the pistons, along with neutralization of sulphuric acid from the fuel. Detergency and solvency are not the same thing.... TS
 
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New York
BrianWC, I think you've already seen the pics from my car, as I put them in another thread somewhere on BITOG a month or two ago. For those who missed them, here they are:  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  - Lots of varnish, no real sludge except on the timing cover, which is dried and not going anywhere. Haven't pulled the pan yet. Turbo blew at around 105k or so. PCV system all new since my ownership in Jan 05 - original configuration, uses no oil whatsoever. 5k OCI on RTS, SAAB OEM or Mann filters. I'll yank the cover next summer and see what it looks like after another 20k miles.
 
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295
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Melbourne, Australia
Wow, this sure look nasty. What oil did you used? Anyway i have a friend who has a Mit GDI engine who like just like your with brown varnish but was cleaned by his third OCI with Redline 5w40. We didn't took a picture then because we thought nothing of it. Oh fyi he used to use Castrol RS 10w50.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Trex101: Wow, this sure look nasty. What oil did you used?
If you think that looks nasty then you may never have seen a truly dirty engine. For a hot running turbo charged engine with over 100K miles, I would call that a clean engine with some varnish. And to use Frank's phrase, "varnish is nothing more than a cosemtic stain".
 

BrianWC

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Louisiana
quote:
Originally posted by va3ux: And to use Frank's phrase, "varnish is nothing more than a cosemtic stain".
I sometimes wonder if that's a dangerous thing to say in such a blanket fashion. It depends on where it is and how much there is. You can have significant accumulations of varnish just like you can of sludge. It's a different chemical process that produces each. 02Pilot: That being said....yeah, I didn't realize that was you, 02! Really, it looks no worse than my car at 59k looked on either dino or synth blend-whatever the leasee's dealer used for their 10k changes. [Duh!] I have to agree with the others-I don't think there's much anything will do for that EXCEPT for that hard baked stuff over there by the timing chain. But it WOULD be nice for the sake of knowledge to see what a year of Rotella would do.
 
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98
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New York
Yeah, it's not really very sludgy, but it will be interesting nonetheless to see what RTS does over 20k miles. There are a few tiny spots - top of the #1 exhaust cam bearing cap, a few nooks and crannies - plus the obvious stuff on the cold side of the motor. At least I know it's not going to get any worse with the RTS.
 
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5,069
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Saratoga, NY
I'm guilty of recommending an HDEO to clean-up a sludged motor (NOT a heavily stained one). I think Patrick Bedard at Car & Driver did the same thing several years ago. However, looking back, I cannot think of a single instance where I have documented results of significant cleaning. Again, the problem is I'd need to find a really sludged-up motor to begin with and wouldn't let even my lawn mower get this way first. Oh, and my recommended clean-up interval would be closer to 1,000 miles, not 200. [Wink] --- Bror Jace
 
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