Surprised by the number of hybrid vehicles in France

[PandaBear]

What I keep hearing is that people that own EVs use them differently.

I take this to mean.. drive in the same area, usually or probably the same way, and don't need to charge up for days at a time.

That's where I am at in the whole EV vs traditional ICE equation, with hybrid being more towards ICE since on a highway you're probably not using the Hybrid part at all.

The cost of the energy needed to charge up that EV, even if you take out the time constraints, is what will need to beat out the price per gallon of gasoline. I still think EVs are a better option for a small percentage, sure.

My opinion is fluid and changing but this best gives a summary of my views on the topic. Have not yet heard of an EV except for maybe a BMW i3 that has "bad" performance. Prius on sport mode is pretty fast.

I don't think that what I hear. What I hear is people buy for the worst case scenario but they only need an EV "most" of the time, so if you need more than 1 vehicle why not get at least 1 EV that is good enough (i.e. 150 miles range, 30k, last 15 years, fast enough, seat 4, commute with carpool lane).

To me the biggest cost to EV is not the electricity to charge it (yes it is expensive here like 26c/kwh on an EV plan to like $1.50/hr to charge at work in level 2 charging, but gas is also $6.20/gal), but the battery depreciation cost regardless of using it or not (depreciation cost of the replacement battery divided by the expected lifespan say 10 years). EV battery depreciation + charging cost has to be cheaper than hybrid battery depreciation cost + gasoline to make them a financially good option, unless you are just buying a toy.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

I don't think that what I hear. What I hear is people buy for the worst case scenario but they only need an EV "most" of the time, so if you need more than 1 vehicle why not get at least 1 EV that is good enough (i.e. 150 miles range, 30k, last 15 years, fast enough, seat 4, commute with carpool lane).

To me the biggest cost to EV is not the electricity to charge it (yes it is expensive here like 26c/kwh on an EV plan to like $1.50/hr to charge at work in level 2 charging, but gas is also $6.20/gal), but the battery depreciation cost regardless of using it or not (depreciation cost of the replacement battery divided by the expected lifespan say 10 years). EV battery depreciation + charging cost has to be cheaper than hybrid battery depreciation cost + gasoline to make them a financially good option, unless you are just buying a toy.

I would say that a LOT of people treat Teslas like toys. Left a bad taste in my mouth that I was not able to get out of an Uber that was a Tesla . It probably is a fine car but. Little things. Little things. Most cars are fast, some are faster but it takes a fire-breathing monster modified 300/SRT/mustang to beat it, by about a second.... Maybe Teslas ARE toys.

Also agreeing maybe a 2nd vehicle. Akin to a toy.

You might be onto something.

There are some that maybe do the Tesla and use it to go same route etc.. around here they wouldn't charge it on Saturday.

 

[PandaBear]

I would say that a LOT of people treat Teslas like toys. Left a bad taste in my mouth that I was not able to get out of an Uber that was a Tesla . It probably is a fine car but. Little things. Little things. Most cars are fast, some are faster but it takes a fire-breathing monster modified 300/SRT/mustang to beat it, by about a second.... Maybe Teslas ARE toys.

Also agreeing maybe a 2nd vehicle. Akin to a toy.

You might be onto something.

There are some that maybe do the Tesla and use it to go same route etc.. around here they wouldn't charge it on Saturday.

I think at limited capacity of today, EVs are toys. But you know what else are toys: big SUVs, big pickup trucks. People are buying so many them we have discontinued many minivans and cars for them.

The reality is people buy toys over tools if they can afford to. Sad reality in humanity but that's how it is.

When I said 2nd vehicle or more, I meant per family, but if people are single and want a Tesla and a pickup, that's probably reasonable too.

Maybe I'll buy an EV when they are just as good as a Prius, at just as good a price. I'll probably need to wait another 5-10 years but I'll wait, I can wait anyways.

 

[Cujet]

This is probably the 5th time I've called you out on the "gasoline generator only gets 19mpg so my BEV will only gets 19mpg" comparison. You can use your gas engine to charge the battery of a plug in prius then drive that prius on electric only, and get better than 19mpg because your honda gas generator is not that good as a generator in efficiency (it is good for size).

I do agree about the 44% thermal efficient diesel but only at peak, 26mpg today with diesel is a horrible efficiency compare to a gas prius at 55mpg (maybe 46 if you are not driving it right). I also don't believe in the 115mpge nonsense but the grid efficiency depending on where you are, can be as high as 80% (say you have a local powerplant). Let's say you are using 60% grid efficiency, and 50% CCGT efficiency, that's 30% made to the wheel, not worse than the average hybrid at 30% (Prius engine peak is about 30-40% if I remember right and gears / motor / alternator / inverter / is about 80-90% efficient).

The problem with BEV is cost of the battery and the grid mark up, the cost of a hybrid is gasoline not being a local source of energy in many places, still have some battery cost, a lot more components to build and maintain, and the oil industry markup / national energy security cost (including military in many countries to keep the oil flowing).

BTU per mile doesn't mean much, but $ / mile, nox and pm per mile, capital investment per mile, etc means a lot more.

Not so. The very best power plant is just over 60% efficient at the generator's terminals, and there are NO power plants over 54% efficient at the power plant fence.

Its a simple matter to take the BTU's consumed at the very best power plant, and convert it to wheel power on a Tesla Model S. Best case is under 30% efficiency, due to the "stack of losses". A prius engine is 41% thermally efficient, and a modern diesel is 44%. Both, even with drivetrain losses, beat the very best EV's. Period, end of story.

Call me out all you want, the facts matter.

 

[PandaBear]

Not so. The very best power plant is just over 60% efficient at the generator's terminals, and there are NO power plants over 54% efficient at the power plant fence.

Its a simple matter to take the BTU's consumed at the very best power plant, and convert it to wheel power on a Tesla Model S. Best case is under 30% efficiency, due to the "stack of losses". A prius engine is 41% thermally efficient, and a modern diesel is 44%. Both, even with drivetrain losses, beat the very best EV's. Period, end of story.

Call me out all you want, the facts matter.

Prius engine is 40% ideal, vs 60% ideal in CCGT. Prius engine practical efficiency is only about 30%, 50% for CCGT.

Let's say EV vs hybrid has the same regen braking, same inverter efficiency, same charging (from engine to battery or from wall to battery).
Let's say you have to charge to battery before you use the energy to drive the wheel, but you can always use the engine to drive the wheel as long as you lose some in the transmission (10%).

Prius:
30% ideal x 90% powertrain gearing in CVT = 27%

EV hypothetical:
50% ideal x 80% grid efficiency (the number I see is 90% but I doubt that's realistic so I use 80%) x charging then release 75% = 30%

It almost seems like they are very close. You can probably find ways to fudge these numbers one way or another to make either one win, I'll call it a wash.

The more important thing is you need to spend fuel to haul liquid and fuel around, and to drive to a station to pump, etc. I don't know how much is lost but that may be hard to summerize for everyone, we all live with different distance from the nearest refinery and everyone does not live near a Texas oil field. What I do know for sure is you shouldn't assume people are using a honda generator to charge a Tesla and assume that's the right way to calculate the efficiency of an EV to 19mpg.

One calculation of a professor in U Mich on Youtube, calculate that an EV's practical efficiency is about the same as a hybrid as well.

 

[Cujet]

50% ideal x 80% grid efficiency (the number I see is 90% but I doubt that's realistic so I use 80%) x charging then release 75% = 30%

Best case: EV's convert 59 to 61% of grid power to wheel power. Published numbers that show "better" percentages take into account regenerative braking. It's good to know that charger losses, battery charge and discharge losses, controller losses and motor losses all stack up. The 59 to 61% number is real, accurate and true.

Consider that our "best case" powerplant is kind of rare too. Overall BTU's in to out is said to be about 33% nationally.

 

[PandaBear]

Best case: EV's convert 59 to 61% of grid power to wheel power. Published numbers that show "better" percentages take into account regenerative braking. It's good to know that charger losses, battery charge and discharge losses, controller losses and motor losses all stack up. The 59 to 61% number is real, accurate and true.

Consider that our "best case" powerplant is kind of rare too. Overall BTU's in to out is said to be about 33% nationally.

I'm done arguing with you with fuzzy numbers vs fuzzy numbers.

In the end it seems like the only thing matters is $/mile vs $/mile, and so far plug in hybrid wins by a wide margin, but people will always buy a toy the love, whether it is SUVs, crew cabs, Tesla, high power gas sports car, etc are just personal preferences.