Surprised by the number of hybrid vehicles in France

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I'm on vacation in Paris with the family and it's been a few years since I was in Europe and I have to say I'm really surprised by the number of hybrid vehicles here in France. If I had to guess it's maybe 1/3 of all passenger vehicles in Paris with the Toyota C-HR being the most popular. Still plenty of diesel vehicles too. Even the French brands like Peugeot, Citroen, and Renault seem to be cranking them out.
 
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It makes sense with the price of fuel being so expensive. My wife is Austrian and I keep up with the events going on over there. A few weeks ago a family member told us what they paid for gasoline per liter. I converted Euros to US dollars and liters to gallons and the fuel price came out to over $7.50 a gallon US dollars.
 
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Its all about the incremental cost vs the mileage gain. You might have to pay an unreasonable cost increment under present conditions but prior to this the numbers were working out. I believe most of the systems out there are very reliable. Over 4 million Prius’s have been been sold in the last 20 years.
 
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I make and can substantiate the claim that the best hybrids use less energy (BTU) per mile/Km than any other type of car. Like it or not, the way we rate EV's, such as 115MPGe, is a nonsense number. Such efficiencies are impossible to achieve. One can simply charge an EV with a generator and note the fuel consumption per mile. 19MPG is about the best we can do with gasoline generators, and about 26mpg with a 44% thermally efficient diesel. The reason for such poor numbers is the "stack of losses". Again, only 59 to 61% of grid energy makes it to the wheel, (discounting regen of course, which hybrids can also do).

Again, hybrids consume fewer BTU's per mile. Period, end of story.
 
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I make and can substantiate the claim that the best hybrids use less energy (BTU) per mile/Km than any other type of car. Like it or not, the way we rate EV's, such as 115MPGe, is a nonsense number. Such efficiencies are impossible to achieve. One can simply charge an EV with a generator and note the fuel consumption per mile. 19MPG is about the best we can do with gasoline generators, and about 26mpg with a 44% thermally efficient diesel. The reason for such poor numbers is the "stack of losses". Again, only 59 to 61% of grid energy makes it to the wheel, (discounting regen of course, which hybrids can also do).

Again, hybrids consume fewer BTU's per mile. Period, end of story.

I'm liking your post.

Can't wait for the replies on that one.
 

CKN

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Many countries in Europe have an emissions/displacement CAPs before you run in to major tax penalties. Could have something to do with the popularity of Hybrids.
 

CKN

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I'm liking your post.

Can't wait for the replies on that one.
The "stack of losses: comment-or any kicking and screaming on here just doesn't matter. What ever anyone thinks about "smoke and mirrors "e"mpg" or whether ultimately EVs pollute more than ICE vehicles-it simply doesn't matter. The vehicle auto manufacturers are spending BILLIONS, the sales are continually increasing world wide, so you can post about "stack losses" Teslas blowing up, whatever but it simply doesn't matter.

Right now-EVs run contrary to the popular culture on here about acquiring a vehicle on the cheap, being able to repair it yourself and driving it for 300,000 miles and the accompanying "atta boys" that comes with it.
 
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The "stack of losses: comment-or any kicking and screaming on here just doesn't matter. What ever anyone thinks about "smoke and mirrors "e"mpg" or whether ultimately EVs pollute more than ICE vehicles-it simply doesn't matter. The vehicle auto manufacturers are spending BILLIONS, the sales are continually increasing world wide, so you can post about "stack losses" Teslas blowing up, whatever but it simply doesn't matter.

Right now-EVs run contrary to the popular culture on here about acquiring a vehicle on the cheap, being able to repair it yourself and driving it for 300,000 miles and the accompanying "atta boys" that comes with it.

I think EVs are pretty well liked on here.. its other forums where the Automotive forum reads like a Tesla or other up-and-coming EV press release.

When we get to the point an EV can charge up as fast as I can fuel up a tank of gas (really is about 5 minutes or less, longer with a line) I might seriously think about an EV.

Or EV conversion, if things really really go that way. For me, personally.

I am not on the "EVs are the best thing since the invention of the wheel and sliced bread" train just yet.
 
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It makes sense with the price of fuel being so expensive. My wife is Austrian and I keep up with the events going on over there. A few weeks ago a family member told us what they paid for gasoline per liter. I converted Euros to US dollars and liters to gallons and the fuel price came out to over $7.50 a gallon US dollars.
Almost as much as it is here
 

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The "stack of losses: comment-or any kicking and screaming on here just doesn't matter. What ever anyone thinks about "smoke and mirrors "e"mpg" or whether ultimately EVs pollute more than ICE vehicles-it simply doesn't matter. The vehicle auto manufacturers are spending BILLIONS, the sales are continually increasing world wide, so you can post about "stack losses" Teslas blowing up, whatever but it simply doesn't matter.

Right now-EVs run contrary to the popular culture on here about acquiring a vehicle on the cheap, being able to repair it yourself and driving it for 300,000 miles and the accompanying "atta boys" that comes with it.
And yet like many others, I really want an EV for the effortless performance the better models offer. Let's be honest, a Plaid would suit my performance needs quite well... But at $130K, they are sadly $100K out of my reach. In fact, a Plaid is as unobtainable to me as any number of exotic cars. Even the Model 3 performance is, for the most part, out of my reach by a factor of 2. And it's just a Nissan Sentra sized car.

This is worth a watch:

 
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down in the park
our company is taking delivery of new hybrid busses. The first will arrive next week but they need finishing so expect them to start running duties in september. Drivers need training aswell.

They will have 282 kWh worth of batteries installed on the roof, and they're supposed to run 62 miles full electric with those. They also use GPS for geofencing: run priority electric in town and diesel outside. these are bendy busses, I expect them to weigh 20 tonnes empty with the reinforcements and huge battery pack. I think that also answers the question about BEV semis. Not feasible unless you need to run them in a zero-emmisions zone.

I'll let you know how that goes regarding fuel consumption. With out full electric busses I manage around 1.5 kWh/mile- but they only run on a single line. with our small battery hybrid busses I can get 10 Mpg regularly, 8 mpg if I'm doing bad but those are regular size (39 ish ft vs 61 ft)
 
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I make and can substantiate the claim that the best hybrids use less energy (BTU) per mile/Km than any other type of car. Like it or not, the way we rate EV's, such as 115MPGe, is a nonsense number. Such efficiencies are impossible to achieve. One can simply charge an EV with a generator and note the fuel consumption per mile. 19MPG is about the best we can do with gasoline generators, and about 26mpg with a 44% thermally efficient diesel. The reason for such poor numbers is the "stack of losses". Again, only 59 to 61% of grid energy makes it to the wheel, (discounting regen of course, which hybrids can also do).

Again, hybrids consume fewer BTU's per mile. Period, end of story.
From a Well-to-Wheel perspective it's close but BEV are still better. Emissions correlates with BTUs consumed right?


 
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The "stack of losses: comment-or any kicking and screaming on here just doesn't matter. What ever anyone thinks about "smoke and mirrors "e"mpg" or whether ultimately EVs pollute more than ICE vehicles-it simply doesn't matter. The vehicle auto manufacturers are spending BILLIONS, the sales are continually increasing world wide, so you can post about "stack losses" Teslas blowing up, whatever but it simply doesn't matter.

Right now-EVs run contrary to the popular culture on here about acquiring a vehicle on the cheap, being able to repair it yourself and driving it for 300,000 miles and the accompanying "atta boys" that comes with it.

Automakers might be spending billions and all that, but the fact of the matter is the cost of residential electricity will be double or more what it is today in less than 5 years. It doesn't matter if you have an EV, 2 or none. If your summer power bill in AL, GA, TN, FL, MO, NC, SC, KY is $300/mo now, it is going to be $600+ in 2027.

Automakers are spending billions and so are power companies, generation companies and transmission companies. They are all upgrading their facilities. Improving generation, new generation plants due to ridiculous state mandates (i.e.: Wisconsin), building more transmission lines, buying/clearing more ROW to do so, building more stations, etc. Local power companies are building more substations, buying more transformers, switches, building more distribution and secondary lines, etc. They are all spending money like crazy right now preparing for more usage.

And they aren't doing it on speculation or for free. The end user is going to pay.
 
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Ever since diesel gate they have to find a way to keep the fuel economy high and emission low. Diesel PM is not something people like to live around so without diesel, and EV still costing too much, hybrid is the only practical solution in the near future.
 
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I make and can substantiate the claim that the best hybrids use less energy (BTU) per mile/Km than any other type of car. Like it or not, the way we rate EV's, such as 115MPGe, is a nonsense number. Such efficiencies are impossible to achieve. One can simply charge an EV with a generator and note the fuel consumption per mile. 19MPG is about the best we can do with gasoline generators, and about 26mpg with a 44% thermally efficient diesel. The reason for such poor numbers is the "stack of losses". Again, only 59 to 61% of grid energy makes it to the wheel, (discounting regen of course, which hybrids can also do).

Again, hybrids consume fewer BTU's per mile. Period, end of story.
This is probably the 5th time I've called you out on the "gasoline generator only gets 19mpg so my BEV will only gets 19mpg" comparison. You can use your gas engine to charge the battery of a plug in prius then drive that prius on electric only, and get better than 19mpg because your honda gas generator is not that good as a generator in efficiency (it is good for size).

I do agree about the 44% thermal efficient diesel but only at peak, 26mpg today with diesel is a horrible efficiency compare to a gas prius at 55mpg (maybe 46 if you are not driving it right). I also don't believe in the 115mpge nonsense but the grid efficiency depending on where you are, can be as high as 80% (say you have a local powerplant). Let's say you are using 60% grid efficiency, and 50% CCGT efficiency, that's 30% made to the wheel, not worse than the average hybrid at 30% (Prius engine peak is about 30-40% if I remember right and gears / motor / alternator / inverter / is about 80-90% efficient).

The problem with BEV is cost of the battery and the grid mark up, the cost of a hybrid is gasoline not being a local source of energy in many places, still have some battery cost, a lot more components to build and maintain, and the oil industry markup / national energy security cost (including military in many countries to keep the oil flowing).

BTU per mile doesn't mean much, but $ / mile, nox and pm per mile, capital investment per mile, etc means a lot more.
 
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What I keep hearing is that people that own EVs use them differently.

I take this to mean.. drive in the same area, usually or probably the same way, and don't need to charge up for days at a time.

That's where I am at in the whole EV vs traditional ICE equation, with hybrid being more towards ICE since on a highway you're probably not using the Hybrid part at all.

The cost of the energy needed to charge up that EV, even if you take out the time constraints, is what will need to beat out the price per gallon of gasoline. I still think EVs are a better option for a small percentage, sure.

My opinion is fluid and changing but this best gives a summary of my views on the topic. Have not yet heard of an EV except for maybe a BMW i3 that has "bad" performance. Prius on sport mode is pretty fast.
 
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Oct 25, 2021
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It makes sense with the price of fuel being so expensive. My wife is Austrian and I keep up with the events going on over there. A few weeks ago a family member told us what they paid for gasoline per liter. I converted Euros to US dollars and liters to gallons and the fuel price came out to over $7.50 a gallon US dollars.
This plus them going full bore on nuclear power and it being cheap/plentiful, yup.
 
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