Strokes and 3v biting the dust!

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

Hello!
A lot has changed for me since ive been in here last!
I no longer work for Cummins, and i now work for the "Largest Surface Coal Mine in North America".

Im a Light vehicle mechanic, and our fleet consists mostly of F350 4x4 pickups and Vans with the Triton 5.4 engine. Some 3 valve, and a lot of 2 valve. We also have a few V10's and a few 6.0 Powerstrokes. we have in our light vehicle fleet maybe 100 to 150 trucks, vans and bus's.

Now, the setup is;
we use a standard conoco oil in manufactures recomended weights, and all of our filters are Napa Gold.

these vehicles are getting PM'ed about every 3 weeks ( YEAH!) and the oil comes out darkened, but mostly still amber see thru. All filters are changed every pm, including the air/oil/tranny/fuel, and also the fuel cap is replaced every time.

We are seeing about 30k miles on the 3v before they are just plain wore out.

we replace the whole thing with a Ford Brand long block, and it solves all the problems we have with it.
now the 'stroke. as you may or may not know they have an oil log, thats now all curved and so, i suppose to help cut down on noise, but anyways, all the injectors are high pressure oil activated.
At about 20 to 30 thousand miles, the strokes stop starting at a certain OIL temp. They WILL start at an oil temp of 177 degrees, but NOT at 184 degrees. and no matter what we do we cant fix it, i mean NO MATTER WHAT. This has happened about 6 times now with year 2005 powerstroke 6.0's. One engine we decided to replace everything to see if we COULD fix it, the oil pump, all injectors, the PCM, the main harness, all sensors, the high pressure pump, the main fuel pump, the lift pump, the fiters, i mean everything, and the only thing that fixed it was a completely new ford longblock. Runs like new now....

I strongly believe that the root of our problem is inferior oil, and inferior oil filtration on an engine that is litterally driven like a stock car engine 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
My purpose of this thread is to aquire information to compile a report to my boss on the negatives of our setup, and to suggest an alternative oil/filter combination.
This place has money! On a whim of a flier he went out and bout 3500 collars worth of these magnet called 'the bear trap' which are great at falling off the filter never to be seen again.
Im leaning twords some synthetic valvoline oils, and fleetguard stratopore filters.


ANY information or insight will be greatly apreciated!
THANKS!!!

BOB IS THE MAN!




SEAN!

 

[oilyriser]

What do the air filters look like after 3 wks? Do they come out with a good weight of coal dust on them? And what do you mean by wore out? Is the compression down?

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

Yes, the filters are pretty shot. The Gas engines are about like a typical car if they arent changed in a year and a half, and the powerstroke filters...... Ughhh have you read that post on the purolator oil filter the guy ran in the chevy 350 for 4 years straight! imagine an air filter that looked like that!!!!!
Ill get some pics.

Well, compression isnt really down, they spin a main bearing, eat up a cam lobe, or something major like that on the gas engines, but the strokes... its something internal, they got compression cams good turbos good.....
Im going to stop over at ford truck entusiast and ask the fpowerstroke question.

Weve gone as far as haveing fords GURU engineineers, you know the group of guys from navistart that DESIGNED the 6.0 powerstroke fly out to wyoming and look at these trucks. Tey spent three days in our fully functioning ford warranty authorized repair shop, only to come to the conclusion... ''i need this in my shop with my tools where im familiar with stuff''
yeah we swapped out a long block and she runs like a champ now!
long block swap = long block radiator AC condensor and evaporator torque convertor, and anything else thats a pain in the rear to get to with the engine in place!

 

[oilyriser]

This is the perfect job for Terry to handle. I'm sure he can help you figure out exactly what's going on, so you can start working on a solution.

I'd take a guess at fuel dilution from plugged air filters. But that should make the oil black from soot due to rich mixture.
How cold does it get there, in winter?

 

[eljefino]

I definately suspect you need some sort of desert-grade air pre-filtration. Thinking of those huge canisters that swirl the air and fling the dust out with centrifugal force...

 

[Tosh]

Quote:

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...on an engine that is litterally driven like a stock car engine 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

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Sean, can you expand on what you mean by this? Are the drivers abusing the trucks?

 

[DieselPower]

Just curious, might you be at the Black Thunder Mine?

I agree, it sounds like alot of your problems might be due to air intake filtration. I have worked on mining and quarry trucks over the years that had similar problems. What you need to do is get a FleetGuard filter catalog from your local International truck dealer or you can get one online for free from www.ryderfleetproducts.com. What I did for off highway trucks that are used only in the pit's is to install medium/heavy duty truck/tractor air filter housing's on the exterior of the trucks and plump the air inlet port as high as possible. Pick a filter housing that uses large round replaceable filter. It will have 10 times or more filter surface area than a standard pickup truck filter will. Better yet is to pick a filter housing that takes two filters. One primary filter and one is a pre-filter. You would rarely have to change the primary filter in this type filter system as the pre-filter catch's most of the dirt. It takes a little bit of work and fabrication to install them but it's worth the time and effort to extend equipment life. It is cheaper than replacing engines that's for sure. Coal dust is very abbrasive so do everything you can to prevent it from gaining entry to the air intake system.

Next thing to do is pick a engine oil that will work well in the extreme conditions your equipment is placed under. Texas Refinery Corp. makes some great engine oils for extreme conditions and are used throughout the world in mines and quarry opperations.

Probably most importantly is to start a oil analysis program. Looking at oil is no indicator of it's condition. That's a job for a labratory. Any oil supplier worth their weight will provide oil analysis for free if you use their product.

If high engine temps are the norm for your vehicle fleet you may also want to think about installing aftermarket oil coolers. Decreasing the oil temp will help to extend oil and engine life.

 

[LordAbbett]

The 6.0 Navister uses that oil rail that pressurises the injectors to very high psi. A leak in the rail and you lose oil pressure at the injector. Ford can do a leakdown test with compressed air. I'd think the Navistar guys would've done this allready. Maybe they did. The 6.0 is a tempermental engine that can very difficult to get working right. IF it ever starts to have problems. Harness chafing etc..back pressure sensors... EGR etc. I see some of these in associates construction grading businesses.

On the gassers. I hate to ask but have you used heavier than 5W/20 oil?
Have you ever cut open a couple of those oil filters to see what was in it?

 

[LordAbbett]

Quote:

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The 6.0 Navister uses that oil rail that pressurises the injectors to very high psi. A leak in the rail and you lose oil pressure at the injector. Ford can do a leakdown test with compressed air. I'd think the Navistar guys would've done this allready. Maybe they did. The 6.0 is a tempermental engine that can very difficult to get working right. IF it ever starts to have problems. Harness chafing etc..back pressure sensors... EGR etc. I see some of these in associates construction grading businesses.

On the gassers. I hate to ask but have you used heavier than 5W/20 oil?
Have you ever cut open a couple of those oil filters to see what was in it?

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I mean to say that maybe, for this type of duty you should go heavier on the gassers if you have only used 5W/20

 

[unDummy]

Lots of variables(some very easy) can be changed and tested which will hopefully improve the situation.

Switch everything over to synthetics everywhere. Plus, you might be able to run the oil an extra week offsetting the cost and possibly reduce some downtime.

Besides a synthetic, go up one weight thickness everywhere.

I would not be afraid to run a 5w30 or 5w40 in the 4.6, 5.4, and 6.8 mod motors. Amsoil Series 3000 and Mobil1 EP oils are worth a try in the mod motors. Or, test any of the 10w30 HDEOs.

On the next Powerstroke that doesn't start with high oil temp, change the oil to a 20w50 and see if the problem is alleviated. See if it is an actual oil temp viscosity related issue. Drain the oil hot and see if foaming is an issue.
Amsoil, Mobil1, Royalpurple 15w or 20w-50 are worth testing in a couple of your new/rebuilt 6.0s. Anti-foam additive might also be needed with those thicker oils.

As already mentioned above, air filtration needs to be upgraded. Even a prefilter sock, on top of the stock filter, will help. Biggest is best.

Installing 150 oil cooler kits, bypass filters, dual remote full flows, mega air filters, UOAs... can be a hassle and adds additional points of failures. But, you can test those options on a smaller number of vehicles and see what combo helps the most. Selective sampling should help.

 

[Hirev]

Quote:

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litterally driven like a stock car engine 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

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Some UOAs would be very helpful. I'll throw in my 2 cents on this. I think 24/7 for 3 weeks is far to many hours on a OCI.... especially on the lower oil capacity gas engines. That is 504 hours on the engine oil! Putting it another way if you were to drive on the highway at 60 mph 24/7 for 3 weeks straight you would be doing 30,240 mile OCI!

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

im trying to reply to all of these questions, and i aprciate it much!!!

I got some pics for you of the air filters from a brand spankin new 2006 F350 5.4 3v gas diesel engine with 2500 miles on it!! your gonna ________! this one wasnt the wrst ive seen either

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

this is a very good idea! i got an os from this 5.4 to check out..
OH we have an onsite oils any. lab... so i took in 3 weights of our clean oil, our BG additives, the gas, the diesel, everything i could get ahold of, i figure someone on here might be able to make sence of it.
the BG guy came ou today trying to sell an addative oil package, and i think i scared him, cause i got out my CAT touchless vac sampler and drew a sample out of his demo bottle and wrote BG sample on top right in front of my boss!!

Well see what 35 dollar quart of oil exactly is!

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

oil filter

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

yes im @ TBCC. forgive mt spelling, im feeding mt son and typing with one finger...

i agree whole heartedy with you. Today i spent a little time talking about the oil samples with the boss....
well see how far it goes. they are tired of buying engines!
I worded for Cummins, and i believe in fleetguard, but as politics go, the best i think i can get are baldwins. i MIGHT be able to get fleetguars, but id have to beg some people!

the special oil is a GREAT idea!!!
Give me a link, and ill look them up!!!!
My goal now is to get some data outa the trucks to SHOW them that their problems are with the oil....

you should see a 'stroke's filter. It almosttakes two people to get it up outa the box when ts full, and thats 2 weeks worth of use or so!!! Ill try to get a shot of a stroker filter in the next couple sdays.

i dont think they are getting too hot. We have the factory coolers on them, but they get plugged almost imediatly by road rocks, and idiots with high pressure spray guns.we weplace tranny coolers, radiators, and AC condensors more then engines......

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

yes, yes the dribvers abuse the ________ outa the trucks, but my mine is like 16 miles by 16 miles, and when someone is cought they are delt with strongly....

See, the stock mufflers are just mud traps, so they get hacked off when the trucks got 3000 miles on it, and just a L shape is stuck in there exiting in front of the rear tire. Its loud...________ loud, so it first gear foot on the floor to hear it kakle.. it ________ me off.... Not to mention these truck see all 4 tire come off the goround almost daily. they see ful rpm pulls for a minut or more at a time getting out of a mud whole, or pulling some cable daily... they are abused, but more so they are worked to death. They expect them to last 4 years, and we have trucks that are 2004's with 8 cracks and fixes in the frame from being ramed into... raming into stuff, or just plain flying thru the air....
These guys are nuts!

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

no we always use 5w20 in them as per manufacturer... I got a pic of a new engines first filter change for ya.. its the one they put on at the factory, factory air filter etc.. 2500 miles....
Oh, yeah.. we have all kinds of fun on that ________ driver side harness rubbing thru and shorting ot the bajillion wires rubbing on that inner fender well!!
yeah dirt mud bouncing trucks and a million superthin hardly coded wires!!!

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

whats the benifit of heavier???

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

you hit the nail on the head. This what you described is my eventual goal. I believe in this stuff so greatly that id be willing to 'loan' out my LF777 Filter head, and my BHAF and housing im saving for when i get my 6.7 cummins pickup!

i KNOW i can get this solved my sealing up the air..
OH GET THIS!!!
AN ________ COMES IN THE other day!! he has been driving the truck so ________ hard that the riggin dipstick tube broke loose and busted off in the block!!!!
then it dispelled all the oil, but maybe a quart or 2. So he comes in, its ticking like a ________ timebomb... he adds 5 yeah FIVE QUARTS OF OIL WITHOUT EVEN LOOKING AT THE DIPSTICK.. and takes off....... so he doesnt even notice the dipsticks GONE!
Well, of course, it pukes that 5 quarts all over the floor in my stall, but he dont car.. hauls ________ off first gear and foot on the floor!
IDIOTS! Goshh....

 

[Ibuiltmine-o1oo]

Im gettin you some UOS's, and ill get more this week, and will be done by the time i get back to work next week.

What do i need to tell them to look for, cause they can do anything.. what TOP important?
whats a good OIC, or will we find that out with the UOS's?