Stolen in 10 seconds
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It seems keyless technology can be duplicated with the right equipment and a car driven away completely intact. Not sure I'm a fan of any keyless system, as most of the vehicles can be driven away from home without the key and will only fail to start the next time. Had this happen with a rental car and my wife who had the key in her purse as I drove away.
Nick1994
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I've got a $0 deductible.
You can have it.
You can have it.
Luckily the only people in these parts stealing vehicles are crack heads. They can't afford that reader/duplicator.
Put your keyless fobs in a faraday cage.
I could go for a Yubikey entry/ignition enable. I bet 95% would find it too difficult, and even I would complain about revisiting a dealer to sync a new key, and the eventual 'no longer supported' issues. If you steal an electric, will it phone home whenever it's recharged?
Originally Posted by Wolf359
This seems to be popular in the UK, haven't really heard of it being too common here. Carjacking seems to be cheaper and works for all cars.
Here, it's that, but that's uncommon, or finding keys in the vehicle. You go to small town Saskatchewan, at least 1/3 of people will have keys in the ignition and state that they do so to make sure their neighbours can borrow the vehicle without fuss.
This seems to be popular in the UK, haven't really heard of it being too common here. Carjacking seems to be cheaper and works for all cars.
Here, it's that, but that's uncommon, or finding keys in the vehicle. You go to small town Saskatchewan, at least 1/3 of people will have keys in the ignition and state that they do so to make sure their neighbours can borrow the vehicle without fuss.
Originally Posted by Garak
You go to small town Saskatchewan, at least 1/3 of people will have keys in the ignition and state that they do so to make sure their neighbours can borrow the vehicle without fuss.
Maybe 30 years ago that was the case.
These days the folks in Saskabush have had to wise up from all the crime in the "big" cities like Regina and Saskatoon.
You go to small town Saskatchewan, at least 1/3 of people will have keys in the ignition and state that they do so to make sure their neighbours can borrow the vehicle without fuss.
Maybe 30 years ago that was the case.
These days the folks in Saskabush have had to wise up from all the crime in the "big" cities like Regina and Saskatoon.
4WD
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Originally Posted by 2009Edge
Put your keyless fobs in a faraday cage.
Would a metal coffee cup work ?
Put your keyless fobs in a faraday cage.
Would a metal coffee cup work ?
OBD2 lock
Originally Posted by Cujet
It seems keyless technology can be duplicated with the right equipment and a car driven away completely intact.
Duplicated? That's not what's happening here.
This would best be defined as an exploit of basic RF systems.
Keyless access system function on a type of two-part communication. The first part, when you approach the vehicle and attempt to enter (by pressing a button, touching a capacitive switch, or operating the door handle), will cause the vehicle to send out a low powered, low frequency signal. This has a range of around 3 meters at most, but can be tuned for less. Any keyless entry transmitter within that
The exploit lies in the RF part. The RF response by the transmitter is just as if you were actively pressing a button on the transmitter. This typically has a range of about 20 m. If you can "boost" the initial low frequency, low range to a level that can reach the keyless entry transmitter, it will respond. Now, anything with enough gain to effectively boost that low frequency signal is totally outlawed by communication standards, but we're talking criminals here.
The exploit only works when the keyless entry transmitter is close enough. It's typically useless when you're at work or out shopping or whatever, because the transmitter is on your person and too far away. At home though, when your car is in the driveway, it is often close enough. This will certainly gain access to the interior of the vehicle for some quick snatch and grab and it could be used a second time to start and steal the vehicle outright. In the case of an outright vehicle theft, as soon as the vehicle is moved, it'll be out of range of the transmitter (which is still the the house), so it won't be able to be restarted.
Without intimate access to the transmitter or vehicle for at least 30 minutes or so, it is incredibly difficulty, if not outright impossible, to duplicate a keyless entry transmitter.
Having had the opportunity to work with the insurance industry on vehicle theft issues in the past, it would blow your mind to know all the ways vehicles are stolen that have nothing to do with electronic safeguards. Every single time I was asked to opine on a compromised immobilizer system, it always ended up being some type of mechanical exploit to move the vehicle.
I've personally known more than one person who can cut a fresh key from memory after studying it for about 3 seconds. Left your keys laying on a table? They can cut a duplicate key after just looking at it. Most locksmiths can do this. If they can learn to do it, so can a criminal. Anymore, this isn't an issue for automotive keys due to high security key designs, but it wasn't uncommon in the past.
It seems keyless technology can be duplicated with the right equipment and a car driven away completely intact.
Duplicated? That's not what's happening here.
This would best be defined as an exploit of basic RF systems.
Keyless access system function on a type of two-part communication. The first part, when you approach the vehicle and attempt to enter (by pressing a button, touching a capacitive switch, or operating the door handle), will cause the vehicle to send out a low powered, low frequency signal. This has a range of around 3 meters at most, but can be tuned for less. Any keyless entry transmitter within that
The exploit lies in the RF part. The RF response by the transmitter is just as if you were actively pressing a button on the transmitter. This typically has a range of about 20 m. If you can "boost" the initial low frequency, low range to a level that can reach the keyless entry transmitter, it will respond. Now, anything with enough gain to effectively boost that low frequency signal is totally outlawed by communication standards, but we're talking criminals here.
The exploit only works when the keyless entry transmitter is close enough. It's typically useless when you're at work or out shopping or whatever, because the transmitter is on your person and too far away. At home though, when your car is in the driveway, it is often close enough. This will certainly gain access to the interior of the vehicle for some quick snatch and grab and it could be used a second time to start and steal the vehicle outright. In the case of an outright vehicle theft, as soon as the vehicle is moved, it'll be out of range of the transmitter (which is still the the house), so it won't be able to be restarted.
Without intimate access to the transmitter or vehicle for at least 30 minutes or so, it is incredibly difficulty, if not outright impossible, to duplicate a keyless entry transmitter.
Having had the opportunity to work with the insurance industry on vehicle theft issues in the past, it would blow your mind to know all the ways vehicles are stolen that have nothing to do with electronic safeguards. Every single time I was asked to opine on a compromised immobilizer system, it always ended up being some type of mechanical exploit to move the vehicle.
I've personally known more than one person who can cut a fresh key from memory after studying it for about 3 seconds. Left your keys laying on a table? They can cut a duplicate key after just looking at it. Most locksmiths can do this. If they can learn to do it, so can a criminal. Anymore, this isn't an issue for automotive keys due to high security key designs, but it wasn't uncommon in the past.
Originally Posted by 4WD
Originally Posted by 2009Edge
Put your keyless fobs in a faraday cage.
Would a metal coffee cup work ?
Nope. I use one of these.
https://e-forensic.ca/products/siforce-faraday-bags
Originally Posted by 2009Edge
Put your keyless fobs in a faraday cage.
Would a metal coffee cup work ?
Nope. I use one of these.
https://e-forensic.ca/products/siforce-faraday-bags
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We have keyless entry and pushbutton start on the mazda, i hate it. Id much rather have a simple key start and a small fob for unlocking. I love everything about the cx-5 except this, and the auto wipers.
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Why would you prefer a key over a fob? Not trying to be critical here but I'm interested in your reasoning.
Our Mazda is the first fob vehicle I've owned. I like the idea of slipping the fob in my cargo pocket on my pants and leaving it there. One push on the door button unlocks everything. Hatch has its own button. I don't use the fob.
When I get home the fob goes in the blocking pouch I linked to above.
Thieves have had no problems with keyed ignitions. The fobs are just the latest thing. I'd like to see a fingerprint sensor in a car just like my iPhone. That would be a good move forward.
Our Mazda is the first fob vehicle I've owned. I like the idea of slipping the fob in my cargo pocket on my pants and leaving it there. One push on the door button unlocks everything. Hatch has its own button. I don't use the fob.
When I get home the fob goes in the blocking pouch I linked to above.
Thieves have had no problems with keyed ignitions. The fobs are just the latest thing. I'd like to see a fingerprint sensor in a car just like my iPhone. That would be a good move forward.
Originally Posted by PimTac
I'd like to see a fingerprint sensor in a car just like my iPhone. That would be a good move forward.
Here now! Hyundai and Bentley have this technology on 2019 production vehicles. You can expect to see a flood of new vehicles that have this technology in the very near future.
I'd like to see a fingerprint sensor in a car just like my iPhone. That would be a good move forward.
Here now! Hyundai and Bentley have this technology on 2019 production vehicles. You can expect to see a flood of new vehicles that have this technology in the very near future.
Originally Posted by PimTac
Good to hear. If they can have it on iPhones then cars should be easy. Incorporating it into the start button should be the way to go.
They have readers in the door handle and start button.
"Theoretically, faking a fingerprint could still grant access to the car -- or could it? According to Hyundai, the system measures capacitance across parts of the fingertip, linking that signature to the print itself. Thus, if somebody shows up at the car with a fake fingerprint, the car should be able to tell it's not the actual driver."
Good to hear. If they can have it on iPhones then cars should be easy. Incorporating it into the start button should be the way to go.
They have readers in the door handle and start button.
"Theoretically, faking a fingerprint could still grant access to the car -- or could it? According to Hyundai, the system measures capacitance across parts of the fingertip, linking that signature to the print itself. Thus, if somebody shows up at the car with a fake fingerprint, the car should be able to tell it's not the actual driver."
Originally Posted by spasm3
We have keyless entry and pushbutton start on the mazda, i hate it. Id much rather have a simple key start and a small fob for unlocking. I love everything about the cx-5 except this, and the auto wipers.
Don't know what it's like on the Mazda, but both my Mercedes Benz have them, it's one of the best parts of the car. You just squeeze the door handle to open the car and once you're in the seat, hit the brakes and hit the button and you're ready to go. Much faster than digging a key out and putting it in the ignition. I do admit that the only issue with it is that sometimes it doesn't work if your phone is in the same pocket and sometimes it blocks the signal so you have to end up moving the phone so sometimes it's not that fast.
We have keyless entry and pushbutton start on the mazda, i hate it. Id much rather have a simple key start and a small fob for unlocking. I love everything about the cx-5 except this, and the auto wipers.
Don't know what it's like on the Mazda, but both my Mercedes Benz have them, it's one of the best parts of the car. You just squeeze the door handle to open the car and once you're in the seat, hit the brakes and hit the button and you're ready to go. Much faster than digging a key out and putting it in the ignition. I do admit that the only issue with it is that sometimes it doesn't work if your phone is in the same pocket and sometimes it blocks the signal so you have to end up moving the phone so sometimes it's not that fast.
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