Start-Up Wear...What's The Truth?

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Some say 75% of all engine wear occurs at startup.
Some say 90%.

Obviously, coming up with one number to represent the percentage of total wear in all engines is an exercise in futility, but what's the truth here?

It "seems" that minimizing resistance to flow on startup would be the best for the engine, even if that meant having to run, for example, a 5w30 vs. a stronger, more shear-stable 10w30 (talking about "dino" oils here)...
 
Engine Bible

quote:

The current trend is the "90% of your engine wear happens at startup" advertising ploy. This fact is absolutely true, but as it happens, it's less to to with "grinding engine parts" and more to do with combustion. When the combustion gases burn, they form acids which are highly corrosive when their vapours condense. These acids collect in the upper cylinder areas where their temperature is raised above their dew point. The acids condense and etch the cylinder walls and piston rings. In reality, this accounts for over 85% of engine wear, the other 15% being down to abrasion. So the adverts are nearly right - most of the engine wear does happen at startup, and it is because of a lack of oil, but it isn't because the oil isn't coating moving parts - it's because it's not transporting these acidic gases away. Having said that, if you start the engine and let it idle for 15 seconds or so before moving off, you can probably add another 100,000 miles to your engine's life without one bottle of additive. This warms the oil up a tad and makes sure it's in all the most vital areas before you start putting a strain on the engine. Most handbooks tell you not to let the engine warm up before driving off (they're referring to the acid corrosion mentioned above), but they mean don't let it reach working temperature. If, however, you insist on starting up and belting off down the road, think of this next time: it takes an average engine around 3 minutes of average driving for the exhaust manifold to reach 300°C. If you blast off and run around at full throttle, right from the word go, that process takes a little under a minute. Think about it - from outside air temperature to 300°C in a minute - what exactly is that doing to the metal in your manifold? Ask anyone who's ever owned an original Audi Quattro - they'll tell you exactly what happens

 
id say it depends.

starting a car on 20w50 when its 98 degrees outside doesnt seem as bad as starting the same car with 0w30 when its 40 below.

i think that when using the right oil for youre application you minimise both startup wear and driving wear.

also, to let the engine idle a few mins before driving off in the morning is a good idea.
 
I presume the intitial wear is due to scuffing, which in turn is due to an insufficient amount of oil being available by the bearing to be drawn into the bearing. Beyond boundary lubrication additives, would the residual amount of oil remaining in a bearing provide at least some immediate lubrication, or is a larger supply of oil required for proper metal seperation? Does in a bearing at rest, metal-to-metal contact occur unvariably? I mean, due to the roughness of metal surfaces, some oil should still be clinging to the metal, with asperities protruding.

I'm not sure I understand why any measurable wear occurs in a warmed-up engine that does not run under changing or very high load. In the best case scenario, no metal-to-metal contact should occur. Or does the friction between the lubricant and metal surfaces alone cause measurable wear?

Also, I would assume that metallic additives are generally somewhat corrosive.
 
I have never had an engine wear out so I don't know. How long would it take for start ups to wear out a motor? There are Volvo's that go for a million miles and they must have plenty of start ups. Do the engines just stop one day because of start ups?
dunno.gif
 
And how do you reconcile this idea with the Synthetic Oil Life Study where wear rates declined the longer the oil was in use? If most wear occurs at start up, it seems to me that wear rates would stay more constant over a longer OCI.
 
Oldman,

Talking about Volvo's, I have a fair amount of experience with a '96 850 GLT.

Was it better that I run Delvac 1300 year-round for engine protection/cleanliness or should I have gone with a 5w30...something that would have shown superior flow characteristics, especially on cold startups.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Mamala Bay:
Engine Bible

quote:

When the combustion gases burn, they form acids which are highly corrosive when their vapours condense. These acids collect in the upper cylinder areas where their temperature is raised above their dew point. The acids condense and etch the cylinder walls and piston rings. In reality, this accounts for over 85% of engine wear, the other 15% being down to abrasion. So the adverts are nearly right - most of the engine wear does happen at startup, and it is because of a lack of oil, but it isn't because the oil isn't coating moving parts - it's because it's not transporting these acidic gases away.

That doesn't compute, if the problem really is acids, then warming the engine up faster by gentle driving would leave the cylinders exposed to the acids for less time then idling for 15 seconds.

Does the oil bible have a source for that scripture, or are we to accept it on faith?
 
In response to Mamala Bay's post, can anyone cite negative effects of letting your warm up before driving (i.e. several minutes).

This is something I've practiced with every car I've owned in consideration of oil temperature and distribution. Sometimes in winter I will wait until I have a reading on my coolant temp gauge before driving. I've never heard of acid rain in your engine, though I do believe it's harmful. My only concern was allowing oil to completely circulate a few times.
 
Although not a fan of the "Engine Bible" there seems to be some truth to the statement. We know short trips are hard on oil and probably the worst thing for the oil is a cold shutdown like when you run it for only 2 minutes to let someone out of the driveway leaving a lot of combustion byproducts in the engine and oil.

Certainly there is more wear on a cold start, especially in the winter, and until the block heats up it is slightly misshapen from differential contraction of the parts, which would tend to have a poorer fit than when hot. So some extra wear likely occurs during the expansion as the block heats up.
 
Jelly-I'm not an expert but one thing I have gleaned from this forum is that the cleanest one can keep the oil the better the engine will run. This was from research concerning bypass filtration. Ralph Woods, MotorGuard, was the one who gave the best answers concerning clean oil and engine life. And you do seem to ask very good questions, therefore I assume that you are a good student.
cheers.gif
 
quote:

In response to Mamala Bay's post, can anyone cite negative effects of letting your warm up before driving (i.e. several minutes).

Let me say that I'm opposed to letting a car idle for more than a minute, unless the temperature are really low, meaning below freezing.

All I can offer you is a practical comparison between letting a car "warm up" and driving it to warm it up. If I let my car idle to warm up for three minutes, the oil and coolant warm up very slowly, and the transmission and differential won't really warm up at all. I could have driven the car gently for three minutes and gotten the coolant warm enough to open the thermostat (observable on my car via the gauge).
 
I don't know but on my Ford Ranger manual it states the engine will revs iteslf at startup, usually for 10-15 seconds and not to idle the engine. I'll drive it easy for a minute or two before doing any hard driving. I wonder if that is the case.
 
quote:

Originally posted by oldman:
Jelly-I'm not an expert but one thing I have gleaned from this forum is that the cleanest one can keep the oil the better the engine will run. This was from research concerning bypass filtration. Ralph Woods, MotorGuard, was the one who gave the best answers concerning clean oil and engine life. And you do seem to ask very good questions, therefore I assume that you are a good student.
cheers.gif


Assumption's the mother of all foul-ups!
grin.gif


Would the more ideal statement be: The cleanest one can keep the engine the better the engine will run?

Is keeping an engine clean, via HDEO's, worth the decreased lubricity?

P.S. - I'm an outspoken advocate of HDEO's, but hopefully not so arrogant as to not question myself every once in awhile...
 
Heat would seem to be something that would harm an engine also. My Tunda has a 3.4l V6 and it holds 6 quarts of oil. It doesn't have an external oil cooler and therefore the oil temp could be very high. My 740 has a 4.4 V8 and holds 9 quarts. It also has an external oil cooler and from this I would believe that the oil would run cooler and be better for the overall engine life.
 
At cold temeperature a richer mixture and higher idle speed is needed to make the engine run acceptably smooth. until warm. My old Opel had a manual choke, my Scirocco had a choke that was activated via the gas pedal by pumping once or twice before starting the engine at cold temperatures. Computers will do all that in modern vehicles.

An engine needs at least 20 minutes of driving before it is thoroughly warmed-up. BMW used to state 40 minutes. I drive my car very caefully until the oil has reached ast least 60 degree C, and I don't hit it until the oil has at least 85 degree C.

Some new BMWs limit the maximum RPM automatically to a maximum of 3k RPM if the engine is not yet warm.
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
An engine needs at least 20 minutes of driving before it is thoroughly warmed-up.

I guess depending on the definition of warmed up. I know the oil pressure does not drop to it's normal hot 2000 rpm pressure until I drive about 12-15 miles on the freeway (more on zero F days), but the block coolant warms up much quicker, 5 minutes maybe, so perhaps somewhere in between--10 to 12 minutes?
 
V1

quote:

In response to Mamala Bay's post, can anyone cite negative effects of letting your warm up before driving (i.e. several minutes).

This is something I've practiced with every car I've owned in consideration of oil temperature and distribution. Sometimes in winter I will wait until I have a reading on my coolant temp gauge before driving. I've never heard of acid rain in your engine, though I do believe it's harmful. My only concern was allowing oil to completely circulate a few times.

I do recall a Ford mechanic mentioning to wait till engine revs down and not to idle the engine. But then again that might be cause temp here. I don't know about cold weathers.
 
I've come to the realization that it's not too important to obsess over things like this. I've looked at both sides of the spectrum on engine warmup, and now I just start it, idle for around 30 seconds or so when it's real cold, then drive lightly until coolent comes totally up to temp. If it's above 32 F, then I start it and get my *** going to where I need to be!!
 
quote:

I guess depending on the definition of warmed up. I know the oil pressure does not drop to it's normal hot 2000 rpm pressure until I drive about 12-15 miles on the freeway (more on zero F days), but the block coolant warms up much quicker, 5 minutes maybe, so perhaps somewhere in between--10 to 12 minutes?

My personal definition for "sufficiently warmed up" is minimum normal operating oil temperature, which on my car is 85 C/185 F. My motor reaches that oil temperature within about 5 miles or 12 minutes driving, whichever occurs first. That goes for ambient temperatures above 40 degrees F. I give it a little extra time, usually until the oil temp gauge doesn't show any further increase in temperature. Regular oil temperature at street legal speeds in my engine is at a very stable 100 C/212 F.

I don't think we will ever find out the "truth." Truth is something for a philosophy class.
 
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