Start-up noise

[White 03]

I just recently found this site and I find it most interesting, it is becoming a daily check for me. Already I have gotten answers for some of my questions. But, while going through the past posts and found some on piston slap that got me thinking.

The car in question is a 91 Honda Civic hatchback with the 1500 engine. 200,000 miles and it has always had Penzoil 5-30 changed every 5000 miles.

I have had it since new and for as long as I can remember it has a deep noise at a cold start-up. Depending on how cold it is the noise may last for a few seconds to maybe a minute and gets quieter until it is gone. With a little load on the engine, like letting out the clutch to start to move forward, it is a little louder.

I have always assumed it was a valve noise because it sounded to me like a collapsed lifter sounds or when you over tighten a lifter while adjusting one, but I am not sure anymore.

My question is does anyone know a way to identify my noise? How can I tell if it is valve noise or piston slap? Is there any test or technique to tell one from the other? I suppose it could also be rod noise but it hasn't gotten noticeably worse over the years.

Anyone with experence with this Honda motor already know what my noise is?

I assume it has solid lifters, is that a correct assumption? Valve adjustments seem to have no effect on the amount of noise.

Thanks.

Member number 998, nice number hun? Just made it in with 3 digits.

 

[Patman]

One of our regular members, Bror Jace, has a 95 Civic which used to have piston slap until he switched to Redline. Hopefully he can come in here and describe his problem to see if yours is the same.

 

[Spector]

Your curiosity is great as to what the noise is. However, from all practical viewpoints it really doesn't matter as you have owned the car since new, 200,000 + miles and runs great. So, whatever the slap or noise it the exact cause will not alter anything you do in life. But, I guess, like you I would like to know the cause. Not owning a Honda but having a slapper I vote for the slap, symptoms sound familiar. Hopefully Bror can shed more light

 

[Ray H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by White 03:
...I suppose I could try a little thicker oil at this mileage and see if it helps...

---

A few personal thoughts to be filed under either, "Pearls of Great Wisdom", or "B.S." according your personal preferences:

Going to a heavier oil weight grade might even be counterproductive. If it's piston slap, the slower circulating heavier oil (when cold) might result in more and longer duration noise during warmup. 5W-30 oil is getting to all parts of the engine relatively quickly. Since you indicated the noise is cold-start related, and has been with the car since new, my inclination would be not to mess with heavier oils unless there are other problems - excessive oil consumption, noise when warm, etc. If I'm not mistaken, you engine is equipped with solid lash adjusters. There'll be more clearance when cold. That, in turn, would result in more initial noise than after warmed, so that might be the source of your noise, too. If so, the condition is probably normal and going to a heavier oil weight grade would not affect that issue at all. Another angle to consider is exhaust system noise. Perhaps the elastomeric "rubber" bands that the exhaust and tail pipes are hung from transfer more noise initially through the bodywork until they warm... (I've noticed some cars are now using orange silicon rubber for these bands - presumably because of their greater resistance to heat and pollution and damping qualities when cold.) A gentleman with whom I used to work has a '93 Civic daily driver. They're solid, great performing, and reliable cars. But subterranian tomb-like silence is not among their sterling attributes.

 

[White 03]

Well it certainly is true that at this point it doesn't much matter. It has been a good little car. I suppose I could try a little thicker oil at this mileage and see if it helps but the 5-30 has been good.

But you are right, I am curious and just thought I would try to find out which it is and how a person can decide which it is.

Thanks

[ February 08, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: White 03 ]

 

[G-MAN]

It's Honda's infamous piston slap. Nothing to worry about, as your high mileage clearly shows.

 

[BrewCityR]

quote:

---

Originally posted by G-Man II:
It's Honda's infamous piston slap. Nothing to worry about, as your high mileage clearly shows.

---

Infamous huh? Maybe I should start listening to my Civic. I use 10w30 Schaeffer in my '89 Si.

 

[Bror Jace]

Yep, White 03 you might want to do a search on the words "piston slap" and read those threads. There are a handful of discussions here on the subject.

Oils with moly (molybdenum) and/or esters in them seem to help. The best I've ever used was Red Line 5W30 ... because it's loaded with both. Pricey, but you can easily go 5,000+ miles between changes which helps offset the cost.

--- Bror Jace

 

[Greg]

i have a 91 civic DX sedan with the same engine. yes it ticks loudly when it's freezing out about 5 seconds after startup. i don't even care, i just put it in gear and start moving. it eventually goes away.

 

[White 03]

Again what I would really like to know is a way tell piston slap from valve noise from bearing noise ect.

It seems that they all can occur at a cold start up so that would not eliminate any of the possibilities.

The tone can overlap between the possibilities and I my case it sure sounds like lifters or valve train noise. That could be because most of my experience with these noises is with valve noise.

Perhaps a engine stethoscope would isolate it to a particular area. Maybe I will try that but with the way it rings the metal I am not too sure it will be point to one area.

 

[OneQuartLow]

White 03, short of knowing that engine and listening, I can only suggest a test.

Pull the plugs and hand crank each piston to tdc. Rock it back & forth. If it's piston slap you should be able to hear/feel the skirt rock into the cylinder. Might require a stethoscope. Some cylinders might not have the problem so check them all. If all have it then you might be fighting for experience. It's one of those things where you need to learn what sounds normal for an engine before identifying what's wrong.

David

 

[metroplex]

My old 1988 Dodge Aries with a Chrsyler Corp 2.5L I4 had BAD piston slap.

It would make the slap noise even when fully warmed up and with throttle. It made it sound like a diesel motor.

 

[White 03]

One Quart Low
Thanks I will try that. I agree what I need to do is but the noise together with the cause; my brain seems to work better when I can also see, touch and feel.

I realize that at this point it doesn't really matter but it is for my own enjoyment.

Thanks.