Hello All,
I'm considering buying a neighbor's '94 Acura Intrega. It has about 180,000 miles on it. The exterior is nearly perfect. Interior, un-remarkable for its age. Probably perfect maintenance also. The owner stated, more like bragging, that he used exclusively Castrol Syntex.
Well, from this group I learned it is not a true synthetic.
Questions I have are:
1. When did Castrol substituted the real stuff?
2. Few years back, I remember seeing Castrol commerials where they drained the oil form the engine and the car kept running on the track. Was that pure marketing or was there some truth to it?
3. I will have a mechanic look over the car. But just from the information above what do you estimate the condition of the inside of the engine?
Thanks
Some History on Castrol Syntex, please.
- Thread starter groute
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Syntec is a good oil, just overpriced.
Have your mechanic check everything, but don't worry about the oil. With that mileage, I'd run the high-mileage Auto-Rx cleaning in the engine and automatic transmission
Ken
quote:It all depends on what you mean by "true synthetic", which has generated a ton of listings on all kinds of newsgroups, etc., claiming 1) Syntec is what is says it is, or 2) it is nothing more than "snakeoil". Here is what I understand. Please feel free to correct: Synthetics like Mobil 1 start off as ethylene gas, which is turned into group IV, PAO (poly-alpha-olefin) basestock. Ethylene gas comes from one of three basic places: 1) plants; 2) natural gas; and 3) petroleum. To my knowledge, synthetic motor oils come from ethylene gas from petroleum. To this type of basestock is added some type of additive, including group 5 esters, to enhance the oil. Syntec, on the other hand, starts off as group III, high viscosity index crude oil and is "hydrocracked" to deal with the slack wax problem. Thereafter, additives, including group V esters, are added to enhance it. High performance cars have recommended either type(Corvette and Viper use Mobil1 as factory fill, and I read that Ferrari recommends Shell Rotella, a base III oil - again please correct if wrong). There was a lawsuit by Mobil to attempt to prevent Castrol from claiming "full synthetic" status, and to stop castrol from claiming its product was better than everybody else's, including the other synthetics. My understanding is that Mobil lost on the first issue, based on a lot of scientific testimony, but prevailed on the second. Hence, Castrol now says better than "convnetional" oils. As I understand it, people are angry with Castrol because 1) they did not mention the switch from PAO to hydrocracked base III, and 2) they have not passed along the lower production costs associated with this latter process. However, from anecdotal evidence and from posted UOA's, both oils seem to be very good, and in fact, quite comporable in many aspects. My research ultimately convinced me that Syntec has slightly better wear properties than M1, and M1 has slightly better temperature tolerance. Ultimately, the question is not whether Castrol or any other oil company is our friend (they are not) or whether we owe any allegiance to any oil brand or product (we do not). The question is whether the specific product is any good and will work well for you. Whew...(I know, Bob, would you please be quiet?) Bob W. a.k.a, "TheFuror".
Originally posted by groute: The owner stated, more like bragging, that he used exclusively Castrol Syntex. Well, from this group I learned it is not a true synthetic.
I'm very happy with Syntec 5w-30 and I could care less about the whole "Castrol lied to me, it's really a group III" thing, as it's been beaten to death.
I challenge anyone to find a CONSISTANT trend in the UOA section that Castrol Syntec puts out bad #'s
I mean, does it really matter if oil "M" is made up of group IV, and oil "C" is made up from group III and they both CONSISTANTLY put up good UOA's??
Whats the difference? Other than a person possibly feeling superior as he/she drives down the road saying to themselves "I have a REAL synthetic......You have a "FAKE" synthetic. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
If it works, it works.
Darryl ![[Cheers!]](/forums/graemlins/cheers.gif)
If it works, it works.
Darryl quote:This is why I have decided to run Syntec in my newest vehicle (2004 Avalanche): it appears that it will work best for my application and give me the best shot at engine longevity.
Originally posted by Darryl: I'm very happy with Syntec 5w-30 and I could care less about the whole "Castrol lied to me, it's really a group III" thing, as it's been beaten to death. I challenge anyone to find a CONSISTANT trend in the UOA section that Castrol Syntec puts out bad #'s I mean, does it really matter if oil "M" is made up of group IV, and oil "C" is made up from group III and they both CONSISTANTLY put up good UOA's?? Whats the difference? Other than a person possibly feeling superior as he/she drives down the road saying to themselves "I have a REAL synthetic......You have a "FAKE" synthetic.
![[Coffee]](/forums/graemlins/biggthumbcoffe.gif)
quote:Let me start by saying that I like ALL high quaility oils(as do most BITOG members- I'm sure).
I mean, does it really matter if oil "M" is made up of group IV, and oil "C" is made up from group III and they both CONSISTANTLY put up good UOA's?? Whats the difference? Other than a person possibly feeling superior as he/she drives down the road saying to themselves "I have a REAL synthetic......You have a "FAKE" synthetic. If it works, it works.
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon}
And Syntec falls into that category IMO.
But, I think it upset the engineer's, scientists, and generally people in the lubrication business when Castrol pushed to call group III a "synthetic". ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon}
And it upset even more people when they won the lawsuit and then continued to charge "true synthetic" prices for a G III which is much cheaper to produce. ![[I dont know]](/forums/graemlins/dunno.gif)
Syntec, on the other hand, starts off as group III, high viscosity index crude oil and is "hydrocracked" to deal with the slack wax problem. Thereafter, additives, including group V esters, are added to enhance it.
![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
I think TheFuror got the slack wax part wrong. The Shell basestock, which was being used at least for a while by Castrol in their Syntec, is actually hydroisomerized from the slack wax which is derived from the hydrocracking process.
In other words it is made from the slack wax and not a product that has had the slack wax removed from it.
I think TheFuror got the slack wax part wrong. The Shell basestock, which was being used at least for a while by Castrol in their Syntec, is actually hydroisomerized from the slack wax which is derived from the hydrocracking process.
In other words it is made from the slack wax and not a product that has had the slack wax removed from it.<b>TheFuror</b> did an impresseive job but he did leave out one critical exception; unlike the other members of the Syntec line, SLX (aka GC) is a byproduct of gummi bear production which accounts for the fact that it makes your engine run so S W E E T and it is not produced in a refinery but in the back of a gasthaus in the Black Forest which is why it is so hard to find...the little elves can only make so much at one time. Hope this clears up the one remaining gap in <b>TheFuror's</b> otherwise excellent post (supplemented by others of course).
I agree that The Furor explained it very well and this is the way I understand it too.
I believe one of the of the arguments that came out of the law suit was that a group III "synthetic" with a superior additive package can actually out perform a group IV base with a lesser package for street driven automotive use. The fact that the group III oil does not have quite as large an operating temperature range as a group IV base stock is essentially negligible in normal applications. This has been bourne out by good UOA results on many group III oils.
What generated all the hate mail about Castrol IMO, was the fact that the kept the sell price of the oil right up there with Mobil-1 despite cutting their manufacturing cost drastically. The result was they put all that profit right into their pockets (after legal costs, of course). It was actually quite a good business move on their part, albeit interpretted as kind of sneaky by those of us who give a hoot about splitting hairs over the definition of "synthetic oil"
Getting back to groute's original questions;
1) I believe this all happened late 1998, early 1999. The "switcheroo" happened shortly before that and thus generated the lawsuit.
2) I don't recall the Syntec adds about "no oil = still runs". I think it was the Prolong ads where they allegedly drained the oil and drove all over southern California without incident. Consumer Reports did a test similar to this that kind of proved the ads were pure marketing BS. Either as as result of this test or others the FTC ordered that the ads be stopped because the claims were unsupported.
3) If the PO did run Syntec religously, changed it regulraly, and did not beat the snot out of the car, the engine is probably in very good condition.
Good Luck with the car and I trust that with the advice form this board that you will make your own judgements as to the value of certain brands of oil.
Don
quote:No quite. There really is no grade of domestic Syntec that simply "starts off as group III." As for slack wax, this is hardly a problem. When it comes to base oils, slack wax is a feedstock, the origin of which can either be the byproduct of solvent dewaxing, or from a synthetic gas-to-liquid process (which is the primary way Shell is producting it now). Slack wax is a much better feedstock for producing a Group III base oil which has virtually identical performance and specs to PAO. Such Group III base oils are known as "wax isomerates" and are not produced from hydrocracking, but from isomeration. When Castrol initially swtiched from PAO to Group III as the primary base oil component in Syntec, they used Shell's XHVI base oil, which is a wax isomerate. Now, while they still use some wax isomerate, they also use PAO and the more traditional hydrocracked Group IIIs, as well as Group V esters.
Originally posted by TheFuror: Syntec, on the other hand, starts off as group III, high viscosity index crude oil and is "hydrocracked" to deal with the slack wax problem.
When the "true synthetics" turn in UOA resuls like this one on my Volvo running Syntec then perhaps I will care about the pseudo-legal arguments:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001675
An owner who used a high $$$ oil like Syntec probably also took care of other things well.
Fear not, but still check the vehicle thoroughly.
John
quote:Thanx for the clarification!
Originally posted by G-Man II:quote:No quite. There really is no grade of domestic Syntec that simply "starts off as group III." As for slack wax, this is hardly a problem. When it comes to base oils, slack wax is a feedstock, the origin of which can either be the byproduct of solvent dewaxing, or from a synthetic gas-to-liquid process (which is the primary way Shell is producting it now). Slack wax is a much better feedstock for producing a Group III base oil which has virtually identical performance and specs to PAO. Such Group III base oils are known as "wax isomerates" and are not produced from hydrocracking, but from isomeration. When Castrol initially swtiched from PAO to Group III as the primary base oil component in Syntec, they used Shell's XHVI base oil, which is a wax isomerate. Now, while they still use some wax isomerate, they also use PAO and the more traditional hydrocracked Group IIIs, as well as Group V esters.
Originally posted by TheFuror: Syntec, on the other hand, starts off as group III, high viscosity index crude oil and is "hydrocracked" to deal with the slack wax problem.
Bob W. a.k.a., "TheFuror".Thank you for all the replies and putting my mind at ease about the previous use of Syntec.
I'll probably not use Syntec myself once I take procession of the car but switch over to Mobil 1 or one of the less expensive synthetic (Group III) oil.
Thanks again
quote:If you would like to stay with Castrol why not the BMW High Performance 5w-30 Synthetic for less than 5 bucks a quart ? I will give great bang for the buck in that high mile motor .
Originally posted by groute: I'll probably not use Syntec myself once I take procession of the car but switch over to Mobil 1 or one of the less expensive synthetic (Group III) oil.
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