Solid lifters and ZDDP

[mpow3r]

Hi guys,

I've been reading about this issue of reducing ZDDP numbers in modern oils and the negative effect this has on cam lobes of cars with solid lifters.

I have a Euro E36 M3 Evo (S50B32) which has solid lifters and was wondering what oil would be best for the engine with regards to good amounts of ZDDP and Molybdenum (another additive i've heard is good)?

I have access to all the good stuff from Motul, Redline, Fuchs Racing S, Millers, Gulf Competition and Castrol.

I've read that Redline still has good amounts of ZDDP in all its viscosities so was thinking of trying their 5/10W30 as i've read its a very shear stable so I think the 30weight will hold up to the high revving nature of the engine, give me better acceleration due to being thinner than a 40weight, hopefully dissipate heat better as its thinner and most importantly give me the required amounts of ZDDP to protect my cam lobes

Many thanks

Kash

 

[Donald]

Amsoil has their Z-ROD line of oil.

 

[brandini]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Amsoil has their Z-ROD line of oil.

+1

Also there is a Valvoline VR1 but it's labeled for racing so it may not meet the required specs of a newer car/motor or be good for extended drains and outdoor storage.

 

[Klutch9]

Does your M3 owner's manual specify a BMW spec oil? If it does, any oil that meets that spec should have enough ZDDP & other additives that BMW deemed necessary for that engine.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Amsoil has their Z-ROD line of oil.


Note: OP is in London, UK so don't just assume that he can get hold of Amsoil easily.

Q.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: mpow3r
Hi guys,

I've read that Redline still has good amounts of ZDDP in all its viscosities so was thinking of trying their 5/10W30 as i've read its a very shear stable so I think the 30weight will hold up to the high revving nature of the engine, give me better acceleration due to being thinner than a 40weight, hopefully dissipate heat better as its thinner and most importantly give me the required amounts of ZDDP to protect my cam lobes

Many thanks

Kash


Yes, Red Line 5w30 will provide all of that.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Mobil told me their M1 High Mileage oils have enough for flat tappets (1100ppm zddp according to them). This one will probably be the easiest and cheapest to find and comes in 30 and 40 weights.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Moly!

 

[mechtech2]

No lifters are made of anything but solid materials, whether flat tappet type, roller, or hydraulic.
So being "solid" is not a problem.
A non roller tappet/cam is what can need extra protection. Break in of new parts is very important.
But it is only high performance heavily sprung systems that should need special treatment. Normal passenger car lifters work just great on modern oils.
ZDDP is not a cure all. Cams and lifters were always worn in old v8s, and that was with high ZDDP oils.

 

[Cujet]

Ideal quantities of ZDDP are generally accepted to be around 1200 PPM. However, some severe duty oils, such as Mobil 1 20W-50 V-Twin oil contain much more.

Remember that ZDDP is only part of the solution for tappet protection. Sufficient viscosity is important too. That's why Lycoming engines (aircraft engines with 2 flat tappets per cam lobe) last best using 50 viscosity. Aircraft oil does not contain ZDDP. We rely instead on viscosity.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: mpow3r

I've read that Redline still has good amounts of ZDDP in all its viscosities so was thinking of trying their 5/10W30 as i've read its a very shear stable so I think the 30weight will hold up to the high revving nature of the engine, give me better acceleration due to being thinner than a 40weight, hopefully dissipate heat better as its thinner and most importantly give me the required amounts of ZDDP to protect my cam lobes
Kash

Yes RL 5/10W30 has high levels of ZDDP and Moly and they contain no VIIs.
First if you are considering RL forget the 10W-30 as the 5W-30 grade has made it redundant.
Second, with a HTHSV of 3.8cP it is effectively a 40wt oil and since it's VI is not that high at 162 it is actually heavier than many 40wt oils such as M1 0W-40 at all temperatures.
If you are considering RL I actually prefer their more modern 0W-30 and 0W-40 grades. I don't know if they are readily available in the UK but if they are a 50/50 blend of the two would be ideal for your M3, IMO. The net result would be a HTHSV of 3.6cP, 190 VI, shear stable oil that would be hard to beat.

As others have pointed out, your engine doen't demand especially high levels of ZDDP so any A3, B3/B4 oil with a HTHSV of 3.5cP should be more than adequate in that regard.

 

[oggb]

Mobil 1 0w-40. Easy to find, almost certainly meets the spec for that engine, shears to a 30-weight (generally), plenty of ZDDP.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
No lifters are made of anything but solid materials, whether flat tappet type, roller, or hydraulic.
So being "solid" is not a problem.
A non roller tappet/cam is what can need extra protection. Break in of new parts is very important.
But it is only high performance heavily sprung systems that should need special treatment. Normal passenger car lifters work just great on modern oils.
ZDDP is not a cure all. Cams and lifters were always worn in old v8s, and that was with high ZDDP oils.


Even the cam grinders disagree with that. I have seen several small block chevy motors at the local machine shop that had lobes worn down or lifters dished out with factory grind aftermarket cams. The machine shop sees a lot of it on early v8s, not so much in the later smogger era ones though.

 

[mpow3r]

Originally Posted By: Klutch9
Does your M3 owner's manual specify a BMW spec oil? If it does, any oil that meets that spec should have enough ZDDP & other additives that BMW deemed necessary for that engine.


Hi there, the manual isn't very helpful, all it says is SG/SH oils and for my climate it recommends oils that are 0/5W30 through to 10W40.

We can get Amsoil & Redline, well certain rades of it from Opieoils.co.uk. Thanks all for th input.

So you are saying that Redline 0W30/5W30 is as good as a 40weight. I've seen the specs and they are very good, although all i know of specs is what i see on their sheets, I don't know how they all work together etc..

I see what you're saying abotu protection from higher viscosities. In the rest of Europe most E36 owners use Castrol TWS/Edge 10W60 but most in UK say this oil is too thick for the E36??? TWS has a high level of ZDDP right?

The reason I wanted to use a 30weight was for quicker engine response but don't want that at the expense of engine wear so if using redline 5/10W40 will be better for the engine then i will use this.

I've never mixed oils before and not really heard of it in the UK. So mixnig oils usually gets you the best of both then does it?

thanks again all.

Kash

 

[CATERHAM]

Mixing RL grades is actually recommended by RL.
RL 0W-30 with it's HTHSV of 3.2cP is a 30wt oil.
RL 5W-30 with it's HTHSV of 3.8cP is effectively a 40wt oil.
RL 0W-40 with it's HTHSV of 4.0cP is a fairly heavy 40wt oil; heavier than you need, consiquently a 50/50 mix with their 0W-30 with give you an optimum HTHSV in the 3.5 - 3.6cP range with a very high VI approaching 190. That means it will be very light on start-up while still providing the hot engine protection of a shear stable heavy 30wt oil.

BTW, as much as I like some RL products, I do agree that M1 0W-40 is a hard oil to improve upon, and if it is significantly cheaper than RL That's the oil I would recommend.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: Donald
Amsoil has their Z-ROD line of oil.


Note: OP is in London, UK so don't just assume that he can get hold of Amsoil easily.

Q.


...or Valvoline VR1.

 

[OVERKILL]

I would suggest M1 0w40 personally. That is what I (and many others) are using in our S62's.

 

[mechtech2]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
No lifters are made of anything but solid materials, whether flat tappet type, roller, or hydraulic.
So being "solid" is not a problem.
A non roller tappet/cam is what can need extra protection. Break in of new parts is very important.
But it is only high performance heavily sprung systems that should need special treatment. Normal passenger car lifters work just great on modern oils.
ZDDP is not a cure all. Cams and lifters were always worn in old v8s, and that was with high ZDDP oils.


Sounds like agree, not disagree.

Even the cam grinders disagree with that. I have seen several small block chevy motors at the local machine shop that had lobes worn down or lifters dished out with factory grind aftermarket cams. The machine shop sees a lot of it on early v8s, not so much in the later smogger era ones though.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein

Even the cam grinders disagree with that. I have seen several small block chevy motors at the local machine shop that had lobes worn down or lifters dished out with factory grind aftermarket cams. The machine shop sees a lot of it on early v8s, not so much in the later smogger era ones though.
China cams not broken in correctly? Poor heatreating and spotty induction hardening? How many Folks that are shade tree hotrodders break in a cam with light valvesprings then dissassemble the heads and install the high load spring set. I dont know any.

 

[mpow3r]

M1 0W40. Are you sure?? Will it have enough ZDDP? From reading this website i've come across quite a few that say this oil shears downt to a 0W30 very quickly. Aren't ester based oils are meant to be better anyway due to sticking to the engine internals upon shut down. I'm more confused now.

Btw, does anyone know what the ZDDP levels are in Gulf Competition Oil. This is an ester synthetic and relatively cheap in the UK.

Thanks