Solar finance company files for bankruptcy

[OVERKILL]

I always thought that with solar it was either it offset your electricity usage durian peak times or put excess capacity back to the grid if you were using very little. Are some solar panels set up with a battery pack now?

These contracts set the price at which the power is sold back into the grid. NEM 1/2 in California were insanely generous, and gave the customer somewhere north of 35 cents per kWh. This of course drove up the cost of electricity, like the FIT and MicroFIT contracts did in Ontario, for the same reason, so with NEM 3, they tried to remedy this by paying them 4 cents, which is more representative of the actual VALUE of that electricity when it is being fed into the grid.

Simultaneously, because California has excessive solar installed, the idea was to, by slashing the feed-in rate, encourage these new solar customers to install a battery, which would allow them to store that power and either use it themselves to offset demand during the peak periods, or sell it back into the grid at those times, at a more favourable rate.

 

[Snagglefoot]

I do pay $30 a month for basic service but that's it.

In the late '90s it was only $10. Georgia Power had a $10 fee for much longer.

That monthly maintenance fee has always irked me.

I think I know what’s in the Maintenance fee. I have a copy of a sample bill from 2017. Back then they broke the charges down a bit more. Some is for environmental liability of the coal plants plus a charge to help pay the cost over-run on the Vogtle nuclear plant which a horribly over-budget and I believe bankrupted Westinghouse. It was a line item called “ Nuclear construction cost recovery”.

 

[dogememe]

These contracts set the price at which the power is sold back into the grid. NEM 1/2 in California were insanely generous, and gave the customer somewhere north of 35 cents per kWh. This of course drove up the cost of electricity, like the FIT and MicroFIT contracts did in Ontario, for the same reason, so with NEM 3, they tried to remedy this by paying them 4 cents, which is more representative of the actual VALUE of that electricity when it is being fed into the grid.

Simultaneously, because California has excessive solar installed, the idea was to, by slashing the feed-in rate, encourage these new solar customers to install a battery, which would allow them to store that power and either use it themselves to offset demand during the peak periods, or sell it back into the grid at those times, at a more favourable rate.

So basically PG&E is buying electricity from @JeffKeryk at $0.35/kwh and shipping it to me and selling it to me for $0.60/kwh. I think I’m gonna spend $50,000 on a pallet of those power bank things at Costco and start filling them up myself!

 

[JeffKeryk]

So basically PG&E is buying electricity from @JeffKeryk at $0.35/kwh and shipping it to me and selling it to me for $0.60/kwh. I think I’m gonna spend $50,000 on a pallet of those power bank things at Costco and start filling them up myself!

Yes. NEM3 pays wholesale. @OVERKILL has a great understanding of the history and facts, and has advised me well, but I respectfully disagree with his opinion on NEM1 and NEM2. During NEM1, a solar project was filthy expensive, like $75K as I recall. In my case, NEM2, I consider myself an energy company, just like PG&E. I paid for the project, based on the rules at the time. The basic arithmetic was a flat-out no brainer. PG&E energy prices are off the chart expensive; it is a terribly run company and the PUC is their partner in crime. Blaming NEM 1/2 is part of the problem, at best. Just my 2 cents.

Bottom line, in my case the solar project fuels my home and car for pennies, especially if you consider the price of gasoline. Sometimes you get lucky.

 

[OVERKILL]

So basically PG&E is buying electricity from @JeffKeryk at $0.35/kwh and shipping it to me and selling it to me for $0.60/kwh. I think I’m gonna spend $50,000 on a pallet of those power bank things at Costco and start filling them up myself!

Actually, in Jeff's case, it's $0.374/kWh, plus an additional $0.115/kWh "Clean Energy Electric Generation Charge", so his total compensation from PG&E is $0.489/kWh. Not sure which PG&E plan you are on, but this would be "off peak" feed-in, so it looks like you would be paying somewhere between $0.38/kWh and $0.54/kWh for Jeff's electricity.

 

[SC Maintenance]

These vehicles do absolutely no damage to the transportation infrastructure, and the usage costs are far less than that fee.

They cause more wear than an average vehicle there size due to being a fair bit heavier. There off-setting the $0.33 Georgia gas tax. It works out to about the same amount for someone driving a 25mpg car the country average currently of 13,500 miles per year, roughly.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes. NEM3 pays wholesale. @OVERKILL has a great understanding of the history and facts, and has advised me well, but I respectfully disagree with his opinion on NEM1 and NEM2. During NEM1, a solar project was filthy expensive, like $75K as I recall. In my case, NEM2, I consider myself an energy company, just like PG&E. I paid for the project, based on the rules at the time. The basic arithmetic was a flat-out no brainer. PG&E energy prices are off the chart expensive; it is a terribly run company and the PUC is their partner in crime. Blaming NEM 1/2 is part of the problem, at best. Just my 2 cents.

Bottom line, in my case the solar project fuels my home and car for pennies, especially if you consider the price of gasoline. Sometimes you get lucky.

We went through a similar thing here in Ontario, though a bit worse, as our FIT rates were higher than your NEM 1/2 rates and our consumer rates were massively lower than yours to begin with, so the impact was considerably more obvious.

Ultimately, as simply as it can be put, there are:

1. Supply cost, which includes not only the kWh purchased from the generators, but also capacity credits, REC's, pass-through costs for things like fuel (where permitted), and other charges.

2. Operating costs of the utility, which, depending on the structure, may be a separate fee or part or the generation cost or part of the delivery fees.

And there's one source of revenue: The ratepayers (Industrial/Commercial/Consumer), from which the money to cover 1 and 2 is collected through rates and charges.

When you start paying consumers full retail or more to back-feed into the grid at a specific time of the day, you at best just make the revenue pool smaller. Simultaneously, you force generators with fixed minimum operating costs to run less, requiring them to demand higher compensation during other hours. So your operating costs don't go down.

In Ontario, where consumer rates were like 6 cents, paying people 80 cents for their solar feed-in had the obvious result of driving up consumer rates, because of the discrepancy between those two figures, a cost which the other ratepayers then had to cover, the differential.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Yes. NEM3 pays wholesale. @OVERKILL has a great understanding of the history and facts, and has advised me well, but I respectfully disagree with his opinion on NEM1 and NEM2. During NEM1, a solar project was filthy expensive, like $75K as I recall. In my case, NEM2, I consider myself an energy company, just like PG&E. I paid for the project, based on the rules at the time. The basic arithmetic was a flat-out no brainer. PG&E energy prices are off the chart expensive; it is a terribly run company and the PUC is their partner in crime. Blaming NEM 1/2 is part of the problem, at best. Just my 2 cents.

Bottom line, in my case the solar project fuels my home and car for pennies, especially if you consider the price of gasoline. Sometimes you get lucky.

All these for profit utilities are crooked monopolies. Trust me PG&E does not have that market cornered. Why investors love them, license to print money. I digress.

NEM2 was a scam on the average user. In no way am I implying you were not very wise to take the deal. Its probably around the same amount of grift that Dominion got when they bough South Carolina Electric and Gas after our idiot politicians bankrupt them. A different story related to the above.

Anyway - couldn't you add some solar panels seperate your house system, and charge the Tesla directly? You certainly don't want to mess with your NEM2 grandfather. You could put a relay and brick PLC in a panel, and have it select house or stand alone panel based on Time of Day, wattage, etc.

 

[macarose]

They cause more wear than an average vehicle there size due to being a fair bit heavier. There off-setting the $0.33 Georgia gas tax. It works out to about the same amount for someone driving a 25mpg car the country average currently of 13,500 miles per year, roughly.

The average.EV owner doesn't drive anywhere close to 13,500 miles.

The average EV on the road today is actually lighter than the average gas vehicle thanks to most ICE being trucks, crossovers and SUVs. While the majority of EVs are cars or vehicles based on a car chassis.

If fees and taxes were based on actual wear on our roads, commercial trucks would pay for a much larger share of it.

 

[SC Maintenance]

The average.EV owner doesn't drive anywhere close to 13,500 miles.

Don't they? Is this documented somewhere? Thats the "all passenger vehicle" average. My wife does not drive that much either, but I drive 3X that?

There have been discussions of basing it on annual mileage for everyone - but that is a whole other can of worms.

The average EV on the road today is actually lighter than the average gas vehicle thanks to most ICE being trucks, crossovers and SUVs. While the majority of EVs are cars or vehicles based on a car chassis.

Apples to oranges. First all those trucks pay a lot more then $200 a year in fuel tax because they use way more fuel. Second if you look at something like a cyber truck or Ford Lightning, there way heavier than their ICE equivalent. So again, your can't use that comparator.

If fees and taxes were based on actual wear on our roads, commercial trucks would pay for a much larger share of it.

On this we agree. Walmart's lobby is stronger than ours unfortunately.

 

[wemay]

And video killed the Radio Star ️

Dang you! Now I'll have that song in my head all day.

 

[macarose]

Don't they? Is this documented somewhere? Thats the "all passenger vehicle" average. My wife does not drive that much either, but I drive 3X that?

There have been discussions of basing it on annual mileage for everyone - but that is a whole other can of worms.

Apples to oranges. First all those trucks pay a lot more then $200 a year in fuel tax because they use way more fuel. Second if you look at something like a cyber truck or Ford Lightning, there way heavier than their ICE equivalent. So again, your can't use that comparator.

On this we agree. Walmart's lobby is stronger than ours unfortunately.

There have been several studies that focus on how much the average EV owner drives their vehicle.

Most of the results are between 5,000 mi to 8,000 mi a year. You have to keep in mind a few things. A lot of EV owners have used their vehicles as second cars, although that's quickly changing with Tesla models and other large battery units.

In my study, I'm finding that the average EV driver is right around 5,500 miles. That will change in due time, but it doesn't change the fact that the annual EV tag fee here in Georgia is too high.

Also the Cybertruck and Lightning are sales flops and atypical of the average EV. I doubt they even make up 2% of the total.

I wish some of our elected officials would remember that corporations are not individuals. Most tax cuts and deficit driven legislation is designed squarely for the benefit of special interest groups.

 

[SC Maintenance]

change the fact that the annual EV tag fee here in Georgia is too high.

That may be true - but that is not what you originally said. You said you shouldn't have to pay anything at all because they "do absolutely no damage to the transportation infrastructure"

It's really a joke. These vehicles do absolutely no damage to the transportation infrastructure,

Even if we took that the wear on the infrastructure is negligible, every extra vehicle you put on a road past a point slows down every other vehicle on the road, and costs everyone in time and expended fuel, and demands to expand the roads. You living near Atlanta of all people intuitively understand this. Drive on 285 at 3AM vs 3PM.

In general, everyone's use tax whether it be via fuel tax or registration tax, is likely too high or too low. No one ever pays exactly the correct amount - its designed around a law of averages. No one likes the amount of taxes they pay. I certainly do not.

 

[JeffKeryk]

They cause more wear than an average vehicle there size due to being a fair bit heavier. There off-setting the $0.33 Georgia gas tax. It works out to about the same amount for someone driving a 25mpg car the country average currently of 13,500 miles per year, roughly.

Heavier than a comparable BMW?

 

[JeffKeryk]

PG&E is the only game in town around here. The city of Santa Clara offers their residents a choice. I believe their rates are better. The energy issues here are far bigger than net metering. I believe market choices would change, no improve, everything. Heck, look at the incredible work that comes outta Silicon Valley. Just my 2 cents.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Heavier than a comparable BMW?

EV's are generally heavier than a ICE due to the battery weight. You know this.

Can you say your 2025 Tesla is lighter than a 69 Cadillac? I suppose. This site is about arguing after all.

At the end of the day, roads are funded via taxes. Everyone benefits from roads even if your shut in - who do you think fixes your electricity and water, and delivers your Amazon? Unfortunately that also means someone needs to pay the taxes. Taxes usually are accessed based on who can afford to pay, not on who should actually pay. No different with any tax.

 

[macarose]

That may be true - but that is not what you originally said. You said you shouldn't have to pay anything at all because they "do absolutely no damage to the transportation infrastructure"



Even if we took that the wear on the infrastructure is negligible, every extra vehicle you put on a road past a point slows down every other vehicle on the road, and costs everyone in time and expended fuel, and demands to expand the roads. You living near Atlanta of all people intuitively understand this. Drive on 285 at 3AM vs 3PM.

In general, everyone's use tax whether it be via fuel tax or registration tax, is likely too high or too low. No one ever pays exactly the correct amount - its designed around a law of averages. No one likes the amount of taxes they pay. I certainly do not.

Yes, but there's a big difference between inflicting a tax to fund a specific need versus doing it simply for political points.

That was the point of my post. Commercial trucks and other heavy duty vehicles have been found to inflict over 90% of the damages on our highways and bridges.

 

[OVERKILL]

PG&E is the only game in town around here. The city of Santa Clara offers their residents a choice. I believe their rates are better. The energy issues here are far bigger than net metering. I believe market choices would change, no improve, everything. Heck, look at the incredible work that comes outta Silicon Valley. Just my 2 cents.

Generally, the lowest cost electricity comes from publicly owned vertically-integrated utilities, which lack the short term motivation for profits and instead employ a more pragmatic approach to procurement focused on the needs of meeting long-term demand forecasts. Public/private partnerships can also work here, if properly implemented.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Totally agree, but a BMW 3 series ICE can be about as heavy as my Tesla Model 3. Of course the BMW EV version is quite a bit heavier, I believe.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Yep, so with that already factored into your system size, it's going to be an extremely hard sell for capacity beyond the permitted 10%.

Just got back from the seminar; it was great. Let's just say it supported your analysis to a T. After the presentation, I spoke with 2 of Cinamonn's team; head of sales and an estimator.
For an upgrade to make sense, I would need a $1500 or more annual true up and higher demand going forward, like buying another EV.
My true up was under $600; I don't even think about it.

Asking for a level up system vs calculated size back in late 2017 proved to be beneficial. Bigger would have been even better, going forward.
I paid $12K net (after 30% tax credit) for the completed solar project in March 2018. With the ever increasing energy costs around here, well sometimes you get lucky.

As always, thanks for your thoughts.
My crystal ball says, in the future, technology will have to solve the earth's energy needs. Nuclear, ocean currents, solar and who knows need to be explored. The government (aka us the taxpayers) need to support R&D. That's my 2 cents.